Women are more attractive to men so plenty of women are 'attracted' to women. My guess is the percentage is pretty much the same generation to generation. As Steve implies, the generations differ in how they label this.
This is definitely a new thing, and beyond a matter of the labels used from generation to the next. There's unprecedented social pressure—enforced both positively and negatively—encouraging young people to be as anything other than straight (impressionable girls most affected) in a way that has never gone on in the past. What you're pointing out explains the higher relative rate among females vs. males that was always present...but that doesn't explain the recent drastic surges, which were also seen among young males.
in past generations a gay man would have been in denial as long as possible. Are some of these young men following the trend? Sure, but so were gay men of my dad's generation. Do the rates of sex stuff change over time? Maybe. One thing I am pretty sure of is that it's difficult to talk people out of or into their or other people's weird sex stuff.
OTOH your weird sex stuff can become more intense over time especially in the age of porn. So if the issue is whether straight white men are being officially shit talked, absolutely. Will this result in more practiced homosexuality? I have my doubts
Good point. Women are much more beautiful than men. Both sexes acknowledge that. Thinking forty years ago, I am sure more women would prefer looking through a Playboy magazine than a Playgirl magazine.
There's a Greek musician on YouTube who analyzes music and regional influences and brought up that people mock him because he wears eyeliner and points out that his people have always worn eyeliner and many others do
Prissy men in pompadours and dandy's who bugger abound in Old Britain and beyond
I don't know if it does, but it's pretty old. There isn't much that predates Egypt that we still know of. Sumer I guess. Even the Erlitou culture in China's later.
When Nicole Brown became famous 30+ years ago, I was surprised that OJ was smitten with her in the first place, as I found her angular face to be unattractive
She was 20, white, blonde and trim. Simpson was done with black women by then. Just like the Hertz commercials, Simpson would leap over Tyra Banks to get to a young, pretty, blonde white woman.
In general, white men have more natural facial coloring, particularly around the all-important eyes, so white women must apply (aptly named) makeup if they don't want to look washed out in comparison. My poor SIL has invisible eyebrows--she'd look like creepy Zuckerberg if she didn't paint some on.
Desmond Morris said the one thing sexually attractive in all cultures is clear, unblemished skin, which women have more of--but that was before the tattoo insanity took off.
Those displays convey extra resources of energy and health. In humans there are far more physically sexy looking women than men. Women can also be smitten helpless by the physical appearance of a man alone, but that level of handsome is rare. That's why women famously claim that 80% of men are unattractive on dating apps-- because you can only go by the picture. Only a tiny fraction of men are good looking enough to make women go hubba hubba from a photo.
I'm 59 and my mom's divorced girlfriends (2) had them.
I remember being stunned and stoked visiting a friend's house whose dad was a doctor and they had Playboy in the bathroom, I was in sixth grade in St Paul
I went to classes at the science museum of Minnesota and directly outside where my mom picked me up was a XXX theater showing deepthroat for at least a year
Things weren't as square as they are perceived to be
I would imagine from the name on the subscription although I suppose patrons could have used an initial or a fake name, but it supports my hypothesis so I will believe that figure uncritically except to say that it is lower than I expected.
As an aside, Charen is an alumna of Livingston High School, which is in a well-to-do suburb of Newark. This is the same alma mater as former governor (and presidential primary candidate) Chris Christie, although she is five years older. Charen went on to Barnard and GW Law afterwards
According to Michele Zipp, who was the editor-in-chief of Playgirl in 2003, the magazine's gay readership accounted for about 30% of its readership, though the target audience was heterosexual women.
This suggests that around 30% of Playgirl's subscribers were men
👆
I'm 59 and remember blue boy and other monthlies for the gays in the '70s on the top shelf at the Shinders which was the local chain all the magazines and alternative books under One roof of the twin cities. 👍
Back room for adults with swinging louvered doors to protect the innocent youth👀
Always populated with browsers 🤔
I'm recalling penthouse Playgirl and Playboy and maybe gay stuff on the top shelf at supermarkets with plastic wrap in the 70s.🙄
There were adult newspaper weeklies available in sidewalk dispensers for anyone who had a quarter too.😱
Did you ever encounter a seemingly straight dude who had a Playgirl at his pad?
I mostly see men (who are attracted to women) make this argument.
My assumption was that male bisexuality's more stigmatized, so more men have to 'pick' and naturally pick women since there are more straight women than gay men and until very recently it was much more acceptable for a man to date a woman than a man. So you hear a lot more dudes who are gay on the 'down low' and the wives are surprised--but if they were bi and not gay, it makes total sense.
But if you look at, say, the old Greco-Roman world, while the homosexuality thing was certainly played up by modern scholars, you had guys like Sulla who were at least bi (he had Metrobius the gladiator as his boyfriend) and took high office afterward. I think it was the emperor Hadrian who made all the sculptures of his boyfriend Antinous, and we won't even get into Elagabalus and Nero.
I moved to Hawaii in 1978 and saw mahu culture where the big tough locals were serviced by soft fem boys. Supposedly dates back to menstrual separation in the pre-captain cook days or not in the mood-ism and the convenient I'll do that for you of the mahu.
My classmate Chris got more effeminate from freshman year when he was lispy to graduating year dressing in short shorts and tied up midriff shirts with makeup at a Honolulu high School and would go chitchat with the mokes to disappear and reappear.
I've heard of parallel service men in American Indian culture of an effeminate nature taking care of needy braves.
Dang. It's believable, though. If you look at the 'third genders' listed on Wikipedia (hijra, kathoey, muxe) ...Wikipedia's pretty woke these days, but you can still see the pattern where they tend to be effeminate men much more than masculine women. I'm guessing for the male role in most cultures you need upper body strength, which women aren't going to have.
I had not heard of third genders beyond theory and my Hawaiian sightings that I had not categorized as that, just as dudes who were fem servicers and those around them were comfortable with it, cool to learn, thanks
Yeah, I don't know how much you want to encourage it, but the fact that they list this stuff happening on four different continents says to me it's a natural human thing and Christianity just happens to suppress it.
Doesn't necessarily reflect badly on Christianity--perhaps it cuts down on other bad things that come with it, I'm not perceptive enough to say. (It's how HIV spread after all.) But...it does seem to be something that happens in a lot of different places.
Objectively speaking asexuality could or should be promoted amongst some for it's counterweight of hypersexuality overtakes so many. The term pansexual describes having sex with someone you were attracted to and without intellect physicality is empty fluid exchange for my rational point of view
Ducks will gang rape until the female drowns and still continue on the carcass
Many Greeks and Romans were very bad. I still can't figure out the Mountain Man in "Deliverance" being attracted to Ned Beatty just because he looked like a hog.
I wouldn't think that doing that to a pig as opposed to the other animals utilized for a farm purposes would turn out well, being that the pig is violent and omnivorous.
I was deeply Disturbed reading a letter to dear Abby as a kid from a farmer's wife sharing that all she found was her husband's boots after an incident in the pigpen.
I wonder how Beatty's agent told him about the "Deliverance" part. Agent: "Good news, Ned. I got you a part in an adventure movie starring Jon Voight and Burt Reynolds. It's directed by John Boorman and will be filmed in the wilds of northern Georgia." Beatty: "Sounds good." Agent: "You don't mind doing a nude scene, do you?" Beatty: "No. Well, how nude?" Agent: "You get raped by a toothless mountain man."
Beatty wrote an opinion piece in the NYT in which he asserted that he was a man uniquely qualified to comment on how women feel about rape because people in public often yell 'squeal like a pig' at him.
In Washington DC, we had a disc jockey named "The Greaseman" who interviewed Beatty circa 1988. Beatty was allowed to plug his most recent film in exchange for about ten minutes badinage about "Deliverance" with the Greaseman. The Greaseman, who always bragged about lifting weights, had Beatty do a plug for him. Beatty said, "Greaseman, you look like a hog."
I will hand it to Beatty, Burt Reynolds, Jon Voight and Ronnie Cox that they did 90 % of their own stunts. Stuntmen were only brought in for the most dangerous scenes.
> Keep in mind that these are questions about nominal self-identification rather than actual sexual behavior.
Correct, plenty of college girls who identify as bisexual will marry a reasonably-nice fellow before reaching 30 and have their 1.8 children. Also, the philosopher Andrew Clay Silverstein has pointed out that "bisexual" isn't really a thing; one either performs fellatio or one does not (to clean up his language). Therefore a bisexual woman is really straight while a bisexual man is really gay.
"Plenty" is an interesting word here, the value of which I'm not sure. It's looking like the "plenty" is a lot lower-ceilinged than before.
In other words, lower rates of family-formation are correlated (share a cause) with the rise in LGBTQ identification, including the "trendy bisexual" category you began to see around the early 2010s.
I agree for the most part. But you do have women in the past who have had sex with men but were primarily lesbian. Greta Garbo was one. She almost married actor John Gilbert in the 20s and shared a house with him for a couple years but she truly preferred women like Mercedes D'Acosta. Sixties singer Dusty Springfield occasionally had sex with men but preferred women as sex partners.
My niece was in grad school, in a years-long lesbian r'ship, and announced her engagement to get married to her partner (who was older and more dominant). Once my niece graduated and got a job, she broke up with her partner, got a boyfriend and is now six months pregnant with his child. Her parents (and the rest of us) are ecstatic we won't be attending a lesbian wedding; her Sapphism looks to have been "just a college thing". I hope she remains a hasbian!
Oh ok, I'm happy for her (and you all) then but I have to admit I'm surprised that the older lesbian was also attractive; I was picturing someone more butch and domineering
They were both in an academic environment at a Mass. state college where everyone's a Dem or further left, and there's bonus points for sexual divergence.
I dunno. I've dated more than my fair share of bi women (which probably doesn't say great things about my masculinity levels, but whatever) and they did prefer men...but of course they were dating *me*, so you've got a sampling bias right there.
As some have stated below, there are women like Garbo and Dusty Springfield who will date women and the occasional man, and dudes going for gay sex on the 'down low'. Some are likely just closeted, but seeing the results in prior cultures like pre-Christian Greece and Rome where homosexuality was disapproved of but tolerated as long as you had kids...some probably are bi.
I used the report of this survey's results to say:
"Why are people assuming just because there is a retreat from the three-letter slogan DEI, that the underlying ideology has also 'collapsed'?" And that the survey results showing the highest-ever LGBTQIA+ identification "suggest Wokeness has put down serious roots."
Here's a curious thought: most of us oldsters grew up in an era of gang showers during our school years. I'm told by my grandchildren they're mostly gone now.
I'm thinking being constantly lonely is not a good thing. People avoid it more creatively these days.
Yeah we were taking naked communal showers after 7th grade football practice 40 years ago and from then on the rest of my athletic career. It never seemed weird or unusual, just part of growing up. I remember being absolutely terrified of the thought at first, but also had this strange feeling that it was something I needed to get over because adults took showers after exercise.
My boys are both in high school now and say that there is actually showering now - apparently that wasn't the case in junior high - but the showering that does go on now in high school is still in underwear and anyone who does get completely naked is considered to be "weird" and "kind of gay".
I think they keep a pair of dry underwear to wear afterwards and keep the wet "shower underwear" in their locker, but maybe some do wear the wet ones? I also think some kids might have swimsuits they keep at school, too.
It's all very unclear and confusing to me, but everyone one I have talked to, including my boys and coaches I know, say that no one showers naked nowadays or they just don't shower at all.
When I started in LA junior high school in the Stone Age I was a little surprised when a kid soaped himself up and slid on his back in the communal shower from one end to the other. Impressive and naked of course. Fortunately we did not have cell phones with cameras.
In high school in the 50’s boys took all our swimming lessons naked. Girls were provided baggy swimsuits. Many people are very surprised to hear about this.
That's true. Sometimes it was co-ed swimming as well. Boys in the buff and girls in swimming outfits that were much more modest than the bikinis of today.
We didn't have a pool in our school. However, I've seen photos of vintage 50s school pools and have seen totally naked boys next to girls in swim suits. I believe a girls' virtue and privacy was much more important at the time than a boys'. Further, I'd gather many older sisters had seen a boy's penis before perhaps changing the diaper of a younger brother.
Change out of gym clothes back into a school uniform (or other non-gym clothes). When I went to an all-boys high school, I guess it was just assumed that boys were going to be stinky anyway. And now that I work at an all-girls high school, whatever "games" they play in PE class are rarely vigorous enough to cause anyone to sweat.
I shower in the buff and it would be strange to do it any differently just because I was in school. I don't recall any concern that there were fags about. And this was in San Francisco.
The classic horror movie Carrie (1 of Brian DePalma's only 2 good films), which is set in the then-contemporary late 70s/early 80s, begins with Carrie getting her first period in a communal shower and freaking out, while the other girls make fun of her.
At the same time lesbian bars are pretty much gone with the most hardcore tribades transitioning to male and the others being driven out by autogynephiles. Not what you would expect when 31% of young women claim to be not straight.
I've seen Autogynephiles interviewed, used to be simple and just called them dirty old men🙄
I have a lechers dictionary from my stepdad that I haven't opened much and he also had the book the bisexual option, he was carrying on with multiple women while married to my mom who were employed in their office and she knew and I found it all out cleaning out boxes one never knows
But what about the buggering catamites?
› books › titles › 978-0-271-08335-3.html
Sodomites, Pederasts, and Tribades in Eighteenth-Century France: ...
I'm 59 and ate with my dad at the Greek gyros joint and was mystified encountering the term Greek sex in penthouse when my only reference was gyros to Greece. 🤔
I listened to a podcast about a marine who's in prison for being has extra judiciously violent against those people in Afghanistan, it's a sign of power and display for the warlords to collect them boys
I've heard of the older lesbians complaining about this. I think as you say if you're at the extreme masculine end of the female distribution you might as well just transition. They can be relatively convincing as a not-so-masculine guy, as the hormones do a good job of moving fat around and growing facial hair--after all, turning a female into a male is how normal male sexual development occurs in utero!
A huge number of that 31% are bi women of varying seriousness.
Butch lesbians are constantly paranoid/mate guarding of their femmes because they know the femmes are mostly bi and butches have zero change if a masculine male catches their femme's eye.
To be fair, lesbian bars were also disappearing thanks to hookup/dating apps and tolerance for gay stuff in the culture. But you are very right---the trannies invading the female-only space made them run for the hills.
Kind of ironic: feminazis insisted on invading male-only spaces for 60 years only for some violent psycho dudes-in-dresses to do the same in kind.
It certainly seems that "self-identifying" as "bi-sexual" is more a signal of social status rather than an indication of actual sexual behavior. Almost like you have to identify as some sort of sexual degeneracy to be one of the leftist cool kids, a modern twist on the Members Only jacket.
Yup. I was reading Dan Savage (ha) talking about how 'straight' now has right-wing political implications (among leftists of course), so kids will identify as bisexual to avoid looking right-wing.
Savage has encouraged readers who are attracted to underage children/teens to have sex with them. He forced his weaker partner into an open relationship. He's a true sociopathic manipulative homosexual type.
This is all talk. I read somewhere about how many people who "identify" as LGBTQ have no interest whatsoever in actually proving it and, in fact, try very hard to avoid doing so. It's purely an affect.
Money quote: "....research[link] from elsewhere finds that LGB identification is about twice as common as actually engaging in same-sex sexual behaviour."
"And those who the engaging are overwhelmingly Jewish yentas."
Apart from the indecipherable illiteracy of what you wrote, your math doesn't work.
According to the 2021 Census, Jews comprise 0.46% of the population of England and Wales. The number of British females claiming to be lesbian is, iirc the linked article correctly, something over 10%. Do you have to work at being so stupid?
Men seem to be very much object-oriented while women seem responsive to internal feelings, less object-dependent.
"Men’s subjective and genital response patterns match their sexual orientations. Gay men get much more aroused by male videos, and heterosexual men get more aroused by female videos. Men with bisexual arousal patterns exist, but are less common than even gay men.
Women show a different pattern. Lesbians like the female videos much more, but their genital response is only slightly higher to the female stimuli than to the male stimuli. And heterosexual women show no preference — subjective or genital — for either male or female videos. Their arousal patterns might be described as bisexual, or at least indifferent. Heterosexual women, unlike most men, are unburdened by an arousal pattern that directs them towards one sex or the other."
Related, or not--I haven't reallypondered it: in my experience, the females we used to call tomboys were the easiest to arouse and climax. So the mutilation of these women evokes limbic rage in me. Save The Tomboys!
This was discussed in the comments section at Scott Alexander's blog a while back, and it was pointed out that higher levels of female arousal would act as a defense mechanism--arousal would mean that women are less likely to get injured during rape.
Well, all else equal, we'd expect more masculine women to be more like men than the average woman is, i.e. hornier and easier to arouse and climax. I dated an awful lot of bi women and yeah, they came easily. You could usually give them 2-4 orgasms if you knew what you were doing.
I'd rather have them (as well as their effeminate brothers) play around with tertiary sex characteristics and even same-sex experimentation than convince themselves they *really are* the other sex and try to have surgery. You can become a hasbian, but you're not getting your old organs back!
I know many of these Gen Z “bisexual” women. In the vast majority of cases they have never had a relationship with a woman, most have never even had a sexual experience with a woman beyond, maybe, a kiss. It’s theoretical bisexuality, mostly performative in my opinion.
Ol' Joan dated Steve Jobs for quite some time, even though he was 14 years her junior. The sticking point in their relationship was that due to her relatively old age, the likelihood of them having a family was small. At the time they dated Steve had a bastard daughter he didn't acknowledge and later would have three more children with his wife who was 9 years younger than he
In the Isaacson biography, he tells a story of Steve and Joan going window shopping when she saw a beautiful red dress in the display. They went inside to look while Steve selected some shirts for himself. Steve told Joan that she should buy the dress but Joan replied that she couldn't afford it. Steve then paid for just his shirts without giving the dress a second thought 🤣
It's not that strange. If you're bi and one sex won't talk to you...
I think it was Christopher Hitchens who said he was bisexual until he was so ugly only women would sleep with him. Makes sense--men are more visual, so if he aged out of the gay world he could trade on his status to get women.
Really shows how susceptible young people are to social fads, which the queer movement clearly understands. As others have noted, saying and doing are two different things, and most of this self identification is posturing. However there is real damage being done by the elevation of transing kids to deal with there psychological issues. I have a friend with a moody and high IQ kid who started saying he was bi around sophomore year in HS despite having a girlfriend and never actually hooking up with boys. Due to his mood swings mom took him to a therapist and lo and behold the kid decides that to be his true self he needs to be a girl otherwise he will kill himself. Mom supports him without dad’s knowledge, kid turn 18 and goes on hormones and changes his name, by 20 has feminization surgery without telling dad (parents are now divorced). Still says he is bi and has a girlfriend. We all know what this means and where it’s going. It’s been awful to watch.
That's the worst thing, actually. They fricking tell young men they're toxic if they're straight...but if you're trans you jump straight up the intersectional hierarchy. The jocks laugh, the geeks believe it. In a few years he'll regret it...but be a lot less attractive to women with all that surgery, and likely infertile.
It is not surprising that the left is so strongly homosexual or bisexual. The left is much more likely to be mentally ill and much more likely to see shrinks and therapists. For a leftist, any perversion is to be glorified. Some of the high bisexual figures for women are a result of younger women wanting to be cool. I can't believe there are many male bisexuals. A man who has sex with men but occasionally has sex with a woman is homosexual. Sort of like Elton John fifty years ago.
When the whip comes down by the Stones talks about male prostitution in the early seventies, British buggery is a known thing it's just gone on acknowledged and now it's highly categorized and politicized
Given how horrid women are today, many soft effeminate men or men with such proclivities probably run screaming into gay bathhouses. And given the false political push of "born this way" (which is untrue), many probably think they have to stay there even when the whole thing starts to creep them out.
I can't prove it scientifically but I think most homosexual males were close to their mothers but had distant relationships with their fathers. I think a lot of lesbians were distant from their mothers. Further, I think many lesbians were molested by male relatives. I don't believe in a "gay gene."
What you've said has long been the case. The only wrinkle (which has long been covered up) was that many gay boys were molested young---and a startlingly high percentage of gay men were molested by the mothers who dominate them. The current transmania is led by sick single mothers abusing their sons.
I used to think that gay men had all been molested by men, but I've come to the belief (via anecdote) that it was mommy (or another female) who molested the majority of gay men *first* and turned them gay.
Older gay men might have noted the after effects of the trauma in the boy's persona and then taken advantage, but too many gay men (if you get them talking) have really bizarre stories about how mommy was doing weird things to them as children.
The old "dominating mother/distant-absent father" stereotype may have been a noticed pattern of molesting-aggressive mothers driving off the protective fathers and then having her boy all to herself, in more ways than one. Indeed, one way to make sure your male child has no other females in his life except his mother to whom he is forever loyal is have him be homosexual -- many sick mothers may think of this tactic when the boy is born.
This may explain also why gay men seem to be so attracted to really dominating or loud female personalities. Because of the sexual trauma, they see overt and outlandish female authority as something to bow to, as something natural, or something to be promoted. The way gay men behave around such women --mincing, servant-like, protective -- mimic a loyal child protecting mommy.
Your comment is interesting and makes me think of the old actor Clifton Webb. He had a domineering mother who left her husband when Clifton was very young and took him to New York. She loved the arts and theatre. Clifton, as he matured, got into theatre and moved on to films rather late in his life. He is best remembered as Elliott Templeton in the 1946 version of "The Razor's Edge", a very fine film. When Clifton's mother finally died about 1960, Noel Coward, the homosexual playwright, quipped, "Poor Clifton. Orphaned at 62."
Thirty years ago the gay lobby claimed that 10% of people were gay/lesbian. The actual number was held to be around 2%. I realize there’s a selection effect, but the 2% number comports with my experience much more closely than any higher number. A relative’s daughter claimed to be bi for a while early in high school, but is now interested only in boys.
My dad’s parents had 41 great-grandchildren. One of those is a lesbian and all the rest are hetero.
The other 70% are nonbinary.
Women are more attractive to men so plenty of women are 'attracted' to women. My guess is the percentage is pretty much the same generation to generation. As Steve implies, the generations differ in how they label this.
This is definitely a new thing, and beyond a matter of the labels used from generation to the next. There's unprecedented social pressure—enforced both positively and negatively—encouraging young people to be as anything other than straight (impressionable girls most affected) in a way that has never gone on in the past. What you're pointing out explains the higher relative rate among females vs. males that was always present...but that doesn't explain the recent drastic surges, which were also seen among young males.
in past generations a gay man would have been in denial as long as possible. Are some of these young men following the trend? Sure, but so were gay men of my dad's generation. Do the rates of sex stuff change over time? Maybe. One thing I am pretty sure of is that it's difficult to talk people out of or into their or other people's weird sex stuff.
OTOH your weird sex stuff can become more intense over time especially in the age of porn. So if the issue is whether straight white men are being officially shit talked, absolutely. Will this result in more practiced homosexuality? I have my doubts
Good point. Women are much more beautiful than men. Both sexes acknowledge that. Thinking forty years ago, I am sure more women would prefer looking through a Playboy magazine than a Playgirl magazine.
There is a peculiar notion that elegant plumage
And fine feathers are not proper for the man
When actually
That is the way things are
In most species
There's a Greek musician on YouTube who analyzes music and regional influences and brought up that people mock him because he wears eyeliner and points out that his people have always worn eyeliner and many others do
Prissy men in pompadours and dandy's who bugger abound in Old Britain and beyond
The Egyptians used it too...doesn't it block out some of the glare from the sun down there?
Seems legit, NFL players do it maximum strength, the eye of Horus has it too which predates Egypt I think?
I don't know if it does, but it's pretty old. There isn't much that predates Egypt that we still know of. Sumer I guess. Even the Erlitou culture in China's later.
I think both men and women find round objects more beautiful than angular objects. Women are rounder than men. Men are more angular.
When Nicole Brown became famous 30+ years ago, I was surprised that OJ was smitten with her in the first place, as I found her angular face to be unattractive
Her facial shape was a lot like his.
She was 20, white, blonde and trim. Simpson was done with black women by then. Just like the Hertz commercials, Simpson would leap over Tyra Banks to get to a young, pretty, blonde white woman.
In general, white men have more natural facial coloring, particularly around the all-important eyes, so white women must apply (aptly named) makeup if they don't want to look washed out in comparison. My poor SIL has invisible eyebrows--she'd look like creepy Zuckerberg if she didn't paint some on.
Desmond Morris said the one thing sexually attractive in all cultures is clear, unblemished skin, which women have more of--but that was before the tattoo insanity took off.
I am a fan of uniform unblemished skin and hate tattoos.
Just to be clear, I hate tattoos; I am not a fan of hate tattoos.
Those displays convey extra resources of energy and health. In humans there are far more physically sexy looking women than men. Women can also be smitten helpless by the physical appearance of a man alone, but that level of handsome is rare. That's why women famously claim that 80% of men are unattractive on dating apps-- because you can only go by the picture. Only a tiny fraction of men are good looking enough to make women go hubba hubba from a photo.
While that's a true statement, it's because the Playgirl name was a red herring in and of itself; the magazine was really for gay men
I'm 59 and my mom's divorced girlfriends (2) had them.
I remember being stunned and stoked visiting a friend's house whose dad was a doctor and they had Playboy in the bathroom, I was in sixth grade in St Paul
I went to classes at the science museum of Minnesota and directly outside where my mom picked me up was a XXX theater showing deepthroat for at least a year
Things weren't as square as they are perceived to be
I remember when barber shops had Playboy as reading material for those waiting for a chair to open
That's because the name Playboy was a red herring. It was actually for doctors to learn about anatomy.
Mona Charen once wrote that 70 percent of Playgirl's subscribers were men. How she got that figure is one of the unsolved mysteries of our age.
I would imagine from the name on the subscription although I suppose patrons could have used an initial or a fake name, but it supports my hypothesis so I will believe that figure uncritically except to say that it is lower than I expected.
As an aside, Charen is an alumna of Livingston High School, which is in a well-to-do suburb of Newark. This is the same alma mater as former governor (and presidential primary candidate) Chris Christie, although she is five years older. Charen went on to Barnard and GW Law afterwards
Playgirl Male Subscribers Percentage
According to Michele Zipp, who was the editor-in-chief of Playgirl in 2003, the magazine's gay readership accounted for about 30% of its readership, though the target audience was heterosexual women.
This suggests that around 30% of Playgirl's subscribers were men
👆
I'm 59 and remember blue boy and other monthlies for the gays in the '70s on the top shelf at the Shinders which was the local chain all the magazines and alternative books under One roof of the twin cities. 👍
Back room for adults with swinging louvered doors to protect the innocent youth👀
Always populated with browsers 🤔
I'm recalling penthouse Playgirl and Playboy and maybe gay stuff on the top shelf at supermarkets with plastic wrap in the 70s.🙄
There were adult newspaper weeklies available in sidewalk dispensers for anyone who had a quarter too.😱
Did you ever encounter a seemingly straight dude who had a Playgirl at his pad?
I mostly see men (who are attracted to women) make this argument.
My assumption was that male bisexuality's more stigmatized, so more men have to 'pick' and naturally pick women since there are more straight women than gay men and until very recently it was much more acceptable for a man to date a woman than a man. So you hear a lot more dudes who are gay on the 'down low' and the wives are surprised--but if they were bi and not gay, it makes total sense.
But if you look at, say, the old Greco-Roman world, while the homosexuality thing was certainly played up by modern scholars, you had guys like Sulla who were at least bi (he had Metrobius the gladiator as his boyfriend) and took high office afterward. I think it was the emperor Hadrian who made all the sculptures of his boyfriend Antinous, and we won't even get into Elagabalus and Nero.
I moved to Hawaii in 1978 and saw mahu culture where the big tough locals were serviced by soft fem boys. Supposedly dates back to menstrual separation in the pre-captain cook days or not in the mood-ism and the convenient I'll do that for you of the mahu.
My classmate Chris got more effeminate from freshman year when he was lispy to graduating year dressing in short shorts and tied up midriff shirts with makeup at a Honolulu high School and would go chitchat with the mokes to disappear and reappear.
I've heard of parallel service men in American Indian culture of an effeminate nature taking care of needy braves.
Dang. It's believable, though. If you look at the 'third genders' listed on Wikipedia (hijra, kathoey, muxe) ...Wikipedia's pretty woke these days, but you can still see the pattern where they tend to be effeminate men much more than masculine women. I'm guessing for the male role in most cultures you need upper body strength, which women aren't going to have.
I had not heard of third genders beyond theory and my Hawaiian sightings that I had not categorized as that, just as dudes who were fem servicers and those around them were comfortable with it, cool to learn, thanks
Yeah, I don't know how much you want to encourage it, but the fact that they list this stuff happening on four different continents says to me it's a natural human thing and Christianity just happens to suppress it.
Doesn't necessarily reflect badly on Christianity--perhaps it cuts down on other bad things that come with it, I'm not perceptive enough to say. (It's how HIV spread after all.) But...it does seem to be something that happens in a lot of different places.
Ubiquitous aberrant behavior abounds.
Objectively speaking asexuality could or should be promoted amongst some for it's counterweight of hypersexuality overtakes so many. The term pansexual describes having sex with someone you were attracted to and without intellect physicality is empty fluid exchange for my rational point of view
Ducks will gang rape until the female drowns and still continue on the carcass
This drive to reproduce 😵💫
Many Greeks and Romans were very bad. I still can't figure out the Mountain Man in "Deliverance" being attracted to Ned Beatty just because he looked like a hog.
They want to show how bad and degenerate the mountain men are, right? It's 1972, they can do that by implying they're gay.
Mountain men might take liberties with a 12 year old niece but with another man? Impossible.
I don't know a lot of mountain men. I assume most would take liberties with neither, but some of them are probably gay.
The point is 'rural people bad and scary'.
I wouldn't think that doing that to a pig as opposed to the other animals utilized for a farm purposes would turn out well, being that the pig is violent and omnivorous.
I was deeply Disturbed reading a letter to dear Abby as a kid from a farmer's wife sharing that all she found was her husband's boots after an incident in the pigpen.
I thought the sui sui was to humiliate him
I have been told that there is a gay man type called a "bear" which Ned Beatty might have fit in.
I wonder how Beatty's agent told him about the "Deliverance" part. Agent: "Good news, Ned. I got you a part in an adventure movie starring Jon Voight and Burt Reynolds. It's directed by John Boorman and will be filmed in the wilds of northern Georgia." Beatty: "Sounds good." Agent: "You don't mind doing a nude scene, do you?" Beatty: "No. Well, how nude?" Agent: "You get raped by a toothless mountain man."
Beatty wrote an opinion piece in the NYT in which he asserted that he was a man uniquely qualified to comment on how women feel about rape because people in public often yell 'squeal like a pig' at him.
In Washington DC, we had a disc jockey named "The Greaseman" who interviewed Beatty circa 1988. Beatty was allowed to plug his most recent film in exchange for about ten minutes badinage about "Deliverance" with the Greaseman. The Greaseman, who always bragged about lifting weights, had Beatty do a plug for him. Beatty said, "Greaseman, you look like a hog."
I will hand it to Beatty, Burt Reynolds, Jon Voight and Ronnie Cox that they did 90 % of their own stunts. Stuntmen were only brought in for the most dangerous scenes.
> Keep in mind that these are questions about nominal self-identification rather than actual sexual behavior.
Correct, plenty of college girls who identify as bisexual will marry a reasonably-nice fellow before reaching 30 and have their 1.8 children. Also, the philosopher Andrew Clay Silverstein has pointed out that "bisexual" isn't really a thing; one either performs fellatio or one does not (to clean up his language). Therefore a bisexual woman is really straight while a bisexual man is really gay.
"Plenty" is an interesting word here, the value of which I'm not sure. It's looking like the "plenty" is a lot lower-ceilinged than before.
In other words, lower rates of family-formation are correlated (share a cause) with the rise in LGBTQ identification, including the "trendy bisexual" category you began to see around the early 2010s.
I agree for the most part. But you do have women in the past who have had sex with men but were primarily lesbian. Greta Garbo was one. She almost married actor John Gilbert in the 20s and shared a house with him for a couple years but she truly preferred women like Mercedes D'Acosta. Sixties singer Dusty Springfield occasionally had sex with men but preferred women as sex partners.
The category of downlow straight dudes identifying as such as they search for manholes defies that label 🤔
Most of them aren't after holes.
Holes to get off in was my point whether male or female
My niece was in grad school, in a years-long lesbian r'ship, and announced her engagement to get married to her partner (who was older and more dominant). Once my niece graduated and got a job, she broke up with her partner, got a boyfriend and is now six months pregnant with his child. Her parents (and the rest of us) are ecstatic we won't be attending a lesbian wedding; her Sapphism looks to have been "just a college thing". I hope she remains a hasbian!
I know it's tough because she's your niece, but from a physical standpoint how would you rate her, her old partner, and her current beau?
They're all physically attractive--- won't be headlining any new shows on Starz, but not in any way grotesque....
Oh ok, I'm happy for her (and you all) then but I have to admit I'm surprised that the older lesbian was also attractive; I was picturing someone more butch and domineering
They were both in an academic environment at a Mass. state college where everyone's a Dem or further left, and there's bonus points for sexual divergence.
Dude, don't play ScarletNumber's game. He's admitted to getting off to pictures of his own sister.
lmao! The old incestual pedo ScarletNumber attempting to push his normalization of incest again!
What a sicko.
Getting back into the real world seemed to be all it took.
There’s a term for this . . . LUG.
Lesbian until graduation. Originated in the seven sisters I believe.
lol. Were you bisexual when you attempted to molest your underage sister, you sicko?
hickory dickory dock!
That [young lady] was [performing fellatio on me]! Oh!
I dunno. I've dated more than my fair share of bi women (which probably doesn't say great things about my masculinity levels, but whatever) and they did prefer men...but of course they were dating *me*, so you've got a sampling bias right there.
As some have stated below, there are women like Garbo and Dusty Springfield who will date women and the occasional man, and dudes going for gay sex on the 'down low'. Some are likely just closeted, but seeing the results in prior cultures like pre-Christian Greece and Rome where homosexuality was disapproved of but tolerated as long as you had kids...some probably are bi.
I used the report of this survey's results to say:
"Why are people assuming just because there is a retreat from the three-letter slogan DEI, that the underlying ideology has also 'collapsed'?" And that the survey results showing the highest-ever LGBTQIA+ identification "suggest Wokeness has put down serious roots."
(https://www.stevesailer.net/p/dei-ends-women-minorities-hit-hardest/comment/94886415)
My kids were born in the early 2010s and are absolutely allergic to LGBTQ+.
I observe almost complete heteronormativity in their peer groups.
To the extent they can understand it, they see LGBTQ+ as a kind of adult imposition to rebel against.
Here's a curious thought: most of us oldsters grew up in an era of gang showers during our school years. I'm told by my grandchildren they're mostly gone now.
I'm thinking being constantly lonely is not a good thing. People avoid it more creatively these days.
"All the lonely people..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuS5NuXRb5Y
Yeah we were taking naked communal showers after 7th grade football practice 40 years ago and from then on the rest of my athletic career. It never seemed weird or unusual, just part of growing up. I remember being absolutely terrified of the thought at first, but also had this strange feeling that it was something I needed to get over because adults took showers after exercise.
My boys are both in high school now and say that there is actually showering now - apparently that wasn't the case in junior high - but the showering that does go on now in high school is still in underwear and anyone who does get completely naked is considered to be "weird" and "kind of gay".
So they wear wet underwear afterwards? Jeez.
I think they keep a pair of dry underwear to wear afterwards and keep the wet "shower underwear" in their locker, but maybe some do wear the wet ones? I also think some kids might have swimsuits they keep at school, too.
It's all very unclear and confusing to me, but everyone one I have talked to, including my boys and coaches I know, say that no one showers naked nowadays or they just don't shower at all.
When I started in LA junior high school in the Stone Age I was a little surprised when a kid soaped himself up and slid on his back in the communal shower from one end to the other. Impressive and naked of course. Fortunately we did not have cell phones with cameras.
This has potential for a prison porn plot
The lesbian twist would be high impact scissoring?
My best internet comment ever was responding to a post about an article about Muslims stoning Lesbians somewhere.
"Rock does beat scissoring."
In high school in the 50’s boys took all our swimming lessons naked. Girls were provided baggy swimsuits. Many people are very surprised to hear about this.
That's true. Sometimes it was co-ed swimming as well. Boys in the buff and girls in swimming outfits that were much more modest than the bikinis of today.
Whew. At least ours was sex segregated.
We didn't have a pool in our school. However, I've seen photos of vintage 50s school pools and have seen totally naked boys next to girls in swim suits. I believe a girls' virtue and privacy was much more important at the time than a boys'. Further, I'd gather many older sisters had seen a boy's penis before perhaps changing the diaper of a younger brother.
In America?
In a youthful innocent and not sexual way?
Dang🤷
I can't imagine showering with clothes on unless I was terribly drunk.
"...era of gang showers... mostly gone"?
After gym class they do what, nowadays?
Change out of gym clothes back into a school uniform (or other non-gym clothes). When I went to an all-boys high school, I guess it was just assumed that boys were going to be stinky anyway. And now that I work at an all-girls high school, whatever "games" they play in PE class are rarely vigorous enough to cause anyone to sweat.
I shower in the buff and it would be strange to do it any differently just because I was in school. I don't recall any concern that there were fags about. And this was in San Francisco.
Hey, what was the name of that Irish bar at about 3rd and Irving, below UCSF. I have a good story about that place but I can't remember the name.
What used to be called “Polish showers.” A spritz of deodorant. My son tells me that’s called a Puerto Rican shower these days.
Or a Mexican shower if you use a sink.
The classic horror movie Carrie (1 of Brian DePalma's only 2 good films), which is set in the then-contemporary late 70s/early 80s, begins with Carrie getting her first period in a communal shower and freaking out, while the other girls make fun of her.
I remember that film. John Travolta and Sissy Spacek were rather young actors.
Trivia: Carrie's prom date went on to play the lead in the cult classic TV series The Greatest American Hero.
At the same time lesbian bars are pretty much gone with the most hardcore tribades transitioning to male and the others being driven out by autogynephiles. Not what you would expect when 31% of young women claim to be not straight.
Commendations on the new word introduction!
I've seen Autogynephiles interviewed, used to be simple and just called them dirty old men🙄
I have a lechers dictionary from my stepdad that I haven't opened much and he also had the book the bisexual option, he was carrying on with multiple women while married to my mom who were employed in their office and she knew and I found it all out cleaning out boxes one never knows
But what about the buggering catamites?
› books › titles › 978-0-271-08335-3.html
Sodomites, Pederasts, and Tribades in Eighteenth-Century France: ...
Catamites are the buggered ones. The word comes from Ganymede the pretty boy kidnapped by Zeus to serve as his cupbearer.
Cup bearer hehehe
I didn't know the origin
Proto Euro Mediterranean bacha bazi boy
I'm 59 and ate with my dad at the Greek gyros joint and was mystified encountering the term Greek sex in penthouse when my only reference was gyros to Greece. 🤔
I listened to a podcast about a marine who's in prison for being has extra judiciously violent against those people in Afghanistan, it's a sign of power and display for the warlords to collect them boys
I've heard of the older lesbians complaining about this. I think as you say if you're at the extreme masculine end of the female distribution you might as well just transition. They can be relatively convincing as a not-so-masculine guy, as the hormones do a good job of moving fat around and growing facial hair--after all, turning a female into a male is how normal male sexual development occurs in utero!
A huge number of that 31% are bi women of varying seriousness.
Butch lesbians are constantly paranoid/mate guarding of their femmes because they know the femmes are mostly bi and butches have zero change if a masculine male catches their femme's eye.
To be fair, lesbian bars were also disappearing thanks to hookup/dating apps and tolerance for gay stuff in the culture. But you are very right---the trannies invading the female-only space made them run for the hills.
Kind of ironic: feminazis insisted on invading male-only spaces for 60 years only for some violent psycho dudes-in-dresses to do the same in kind.
It certainly seems that "self-identifying" as "bi-sexual" is more a signal of social status rather than an indication of actual sexual behavior. Almost like you have to identify as some sort of sexual degeneracy to be one of the leftist cool kids, a modern twist on the Members Only jacket.
Yup. I was reading Dan Savage (ha) talking about how 'straight' now has right-wing political implications (among leftists of course), so kids will identify as bisexual to avoid looking right-wing.
Savage has encouraged readers who are attracted to underage children/teens to have sex with them. He forced his weaker partner into an open relationship. He's a true sociopathic manipulative homosexual type.
He is creepy AF and that from a gay man!
This is all talk. I read somewhere about how many people who "identify" as LGBTQ have no interest whatsoever in actually proving it and, in fact, try very hard to avoid doing so. It's purely an affect.
The category of the asexual is never mentioned either
https://unherd.com/newsroom/why-do-so-many-young-women-identify-as-bisexual/
Money quote: "....research[link] from elsewhere finds that LGB identification is about twice as common as actually engaging in same-sex sexual behaviour."
And those who the engaging are overwhelmingly Jewish yentas.
"And those who the engaging are overwhelmingly Jewish yentas."
Apart from the indecipherable illiteracy of what you wrote, your math doesn't work.
According to the 2021 Census, Jews comprise 0.46% of the population of England and Wales. The number of British females claiming to be lesbian is, iirc the linked article correctly, something over 10%. Do you have to work at being so stupid?
And yet they make up 50% of the sexual degenerates in the U.S., and 80% of the supporters and leaders of sexual degeneracy. Curious, no?
Men seem to be very much object-oriented while women seem responsive to internal feelings, less object-dependent.
"Men’s subjective and genital response patterns match their sexual orientations. Gay men get much more aroused by male videos, and heterosexual men get more aroused by female videos. Men with bisexual arousal patterns exist, but are less common than even gay men.
Women show a different pattern. Lesbians like the female videos much more, but their genital response is only slightly higher to the female stimuli than to the male stimuli. And heterosexual women show no preference — subjective or genital — for either male or female videos. Their arousal patterns might be described as bisexual, or at least indifferent. Heterosexual women, unlike most men, are unburdened by an arousal pattern that directs them towards one sex or the other."
Related, or not--I haven't reallypondered it: in my experience, the females we used to call tomboys were the easiest to arouse and climax. So the mutilation of these women evokes limbic rage in me. Save The Tomboys!
This was discussed in the comments section at Scott Alexander's blog a while back, and it was pointed out that higher levels of female arousal would act as a defense mechanism--arousal would mean that women are less likely to get injured during rape.
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/raise-your-threshold-for-accusing
Well, all else equal, we'd expect more masculine women to be more like men than the average woman is, i.e. hornier and easier to arouse and climax. I dated an awful lot of bi women and yeah, they came easily. You could usually give them 2-4 orgasms if you knew what you were doing.
I'd rather have them (as well as their effeminate brothers) play around with tertiary sex characteristics and even same-sex experimentation than convince themselves they *really are* the other sex and try to have surgery. You can become a hasbian, but you're not getting your old organs back!
I know many of these Gen Z “bisexual” women. In the vast majority of cases they have never had a relationship with a woman, most have never even had a sexual experience with a woman beyond, maybe, a kiss. It’s theoretical bisexuality, mostly performative in my opinion.
Then you have strange cases like the old singer Joan Baez who became a lesbian late in life after she became old and ugly.
Ol' Joan dated Steve Jobs for quite some time, even though he was 14 years her junior. The sticking point in their relationship was that due to her relatively old age, the likelihood of them having a family was small. At the time they dated Steve had a bastard daughter he didn't acknowledge and later would have three more children with his wife who was 9 years younger than he
I did not know that. Thanks for the learning.
In the Isaacson biography, he tells a story of Steve and Joan going window shopping when she saw a beautiful red dress in the display. They went inside to look while Steve selected some shirts for himself. Steve told Joan that she should buy the dress but Joan replied that she couldn't afford it. Steve then paid for just his shirts without giving the dress a second thought 🤣
It's not that strange. If you're bi and one sex won't talk to you...
I think it was Christopher Hitchens who said he was bisexual until he was so ugly only women would sleep with him. Makes sense--men are more visual, so if he aged out of the gay world he could trade on his status to get women.
One of the best looking (when young) women ever became a lesbian, after having a family - Meredith Baxter.
Really shows how susceptible young people are to social fads, which the queer movement clearly understands. As others have noted, saying and doing are two different things, and most of this self identification is posturing. However there is real damage being done by the elevation of transing kids to deal with there psychological issues. I have a friend with a moody and high IQ kid who started saying he was bi around sophomore year in HS despite having a girlfriend and never actually hooking up with boys. Due to his mood swings mom took him to a therapist and lo and behold the kid decides that to be his true self he needs to be a girl otherwise he will kill himself. Mom supports him without dad’s knowledge, kid turn 18 and goes on hormones and changes his name, by 20 has feminization surgery without telling dad (parents are now divorced). Still says he is bi and has a girlfriend. We all know what this means and where it’s going. It’s been awful to watch.
There's queer theory which is full on wacky Marxist indoctrinated disruptive regressive crap and then there's LGB t indoctrination
Intersectionality indeed
That's the worst thing, actually. They fricking tell young men they're toxic if they're straight...but if you're trans you jump straight up the intersectional hierarchy. The jocks laugh, the geeks believe it. In a few years he'll regret it...but be a lot less attractive to women with all that surgery, and likely infertile.
He’s also going to hate his mother for enabling all this.
It's sick out there and getting sicker.
It is not surprising that the left is so strongly homosexual or bisexual. The left is much more likely to be mentally ill and much more likely to see shrinks and therapists. For a leftist, any perversion is to be glorified. Some of the high bisexual figures for women are a result of younger women wanting to be cool. I can't believe there are many male bisexuals. A man who has sex with men but occasionally has sex with a woman is homosexual. Sort of like Elton John fifty years ago.
When the whip comes down by the Stones talks about male prostitution in the early seventies, British buggery is a known thing it's just gone on acknowledged and now it's highly categorized and politicized
Given how horrid women are today, many soft effeminate men or men with such proclivities probably run screaming into gay bathhouses. And given the false political push of "born this way" (which is untrue), many probably think they have to stay there even when the whole thing starts to creep them out.
I can't prove it scientifically but I think most homosexual males were close to their mothers but had distant relationships with their fathers. I think a lot of lesbians were distant from their mothers. Further, I think many lesbians were molested by male relatives. I don't believe in a "gay gene."
What you've said has long been the case. The only wrinkle (which has long been covered up) was that many gay boys were molested young---and a startlingly high percentage of gay men were molested by the mothers who dominate them. The current transmania is led by sick single mothers abusing their sons.
Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, was a bed-wetter. His mother used to bathe him after wetting the bed at the age of 14. Kinda freaky.
Dang. Well, there's a red flag if I ever saw one.
I used to think that gay men had all been molested by men, but I've come to the belief (via anecdote) that it was mommy (or another female) who molested the majority of gay men *first* and turned them gay.
Older gay men might have noted the after effects of the trauma in the boy's persona and then taken advantage, but too many gay men (if you get them talking) have really bizarre stories about how mommy was doing weird things to them as children.
The old "dominating mother/distant-absent father" stereotype may have been a noticed pattern of molesting-aggressive mothers driving off the protective fathers and then having her boy all to herself, in more ways than one. Indeed, one way to make sure your male child has no other females in his life except his mother to whom he is forever loyal is have him be homosexual -- many sick mothers may think of this tactic when the boy is born.
This may explain also why gay men seem to be so attracted to really dominating or loud female personalities. Because of the sexual trauma, they see overt and outlandish female authority as something to bow to, as something natural, or something to be promoted. The way gay men behave around such women --mincing, servant-like, protective -- mimic a loyal child protecting mommy.
Your comment is interesting and makes me think of the old actor Clifton Webb. He had a domineering mother who left her husband when Clifton was very young and took him to New York. She loved the arts and theatre. Clifton, as he matured, got into theatre and moved on to films rather late in his life. He is best remembered as Elliott Templeton in the 1946 version of "The Razor's Edge", a very fine film. When Clifton's mother finally died about 1960, Noel Coward, the homosexual playwright, quipped, "Poor Clifton. Orphaned at 62."
Surprised that Steve didn't mention this liberal classic on the issue of young liberal girls who claim to be bisexual https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n39RzgVNP8&pp=ygUjdGhlIGNvbGxlZ2UgdHJ5IGdhcmZ1bmtlbCBhbmQgb2F0ZXM%3D
Love Garfinkle and Oates🤎
They're great
I had quite a few women tell me a similar story.
Thirty years ago the gay lobby claimed that 10% of people were gay/lesbian. The actual number was held to be around 2%. I realize there’s a selection effect, but the 2% number comports with my experience much more closely than any higher number. A relative’s daughter claimed to be bi for a while early in high school, but is now interested only in boys.
My dad’s parents had 41 great-grandchildren. One of those is a lesbian and all the rest are hetero.