This debate has revealed to everyone just how much of a scam the H1B program is. People on X are posting job listings for cashiers, strippers (lol), truck drivers, hotel maids, interns, etc.
I’ll emphasize that those are outliers and far from the main concern, which is hundreds of thousands of well paying IT and soft tech roles being hijacked in every metro area across the country. This isn’t just Silicon Valley - it’s happening in Tampa, Arkansas, Minnesota, Arizona, and any other state red or blue. These roles pay six figures and are filled by enlistees with GEDs in the military but at every Fortune 500 they’re claiming that it’s necessary to import entire scam schools from India while illegally discriminating against white (and black and Hispanic) Americans for the few roles they open to U.S. citizens. These jobs absolutely pay well and those brought over are able to buy homes and cars comfortably - opportunities that are being taken from American college grads.
To clarify my point - they’re roles which in the military are filled by low-education Americans and thus do not require any specific “genius” level skill. A HS grad with 6-12 months of training can do entry level IT, SRE, or DBA work that were currently importing Vivek’s valedictorian cousins to do and these jobs pay six figures without exception.
My grandpa worked 40 years for Boeing as an engineer without a college degree. He dropped out of college to enlist in the Army Air Force in 1942 and never went back to school. He worked on all sorts of projects, including Apollo, Minuteman missiles and so on.
Maybe just let American boys take a math test and give them the job if they're bright enough. This college requirement is a big part of the problem.
Same story for my grandpa at a similar company. He grew up herding cattle in exchange for board, dropped out of schooling at 14, and when he got back from infantry in the Pacific theater became an engineer and rose to work with laser guided weapons by the time he retired.. without ever even finishing high school.
People like Vivek just cannot conceive of building a nation like this and neither can people like Elon, who has no connection to the frontier ethos that has defined the American economy and our system of meritocratic social mobility. It’s foreign to Brits too so by extension to British South Africans.
Israel basically does this. Military psychometric funnels anyone promising into highly skilled roles which punch their ticket into competitive academics and high paying roles out of the army. They don’t import foreigners despite having a comparable
Median IQ to the U.S.
They haven’t sacrificed much in terms of innovation and their tech output exceeds that of India despite having a population that’s less than 1% of India’s.
Absolutely. Israel has a funny racial-economic breakdown with Ashkenazis on top, followed by “Arab” Christians, then the brown Jews, and finally the Muslim Arabs. Their elite military units and the tech roles downstream are overwhelmingly Ashkenazi from across every social class - including kids from impoverished Russian immigrant families- and it’s not especially controversial. Meritocracy above all.
This debate has also revealed that there is no such thing as a "moderate" or "compromise" position when negotiating with the "infinity immigrants" fanatics. If you take the "compromise", "moderate", or "midway" position, you are effectively settling for half of infinity. Which is still infinity.
Once you concede legitimacy, you are stuck forever after trying to stem the tsunami tide you unleash. The real choice, then, is either keep the tide out or be washed away.
"Oh, but I only want to suffer the moderate tsunami," means you are going to drown, along with everyone else you recklessly endangered.
"This debate has also revealed that there is no such thing as a "moderate" or "compromise" position when negotiating with the "infinity immigrants" fanatics. If you take the "compromise", "moderate", or "midway" position, you are effectively settling for half of infinity. Which is still infinity."
Japan does not take immigrants. How is that working out form them? And how is one going to keep out immigrants with the massive land borders that the U.S. has?
Elon is exposing how limited the scope of his perspective and knowledge of this topic is.
We’ve gone to allowing in a couple essential geniuses to merely everyone who is “above average?” Above the 50th percentile in the GRE is probably somewhere around the equivalent of a 580 on the Quant portion of the SAT today, and this sort of incentive would result in literally MILLIONS of Indians and Chinese taking the GRE and subsequently dragging that median down even further. Does Elon plan to cap the number of people who qualify for this plan? Or just let in millions if that’s how many qualify? Is he going to found new universities to accommodate all these students or just incentivize American universities to accept them all since they pay higher tuition rates than American kids?
Let’s all hope Trump is listening to Stephen Miller on this one.
Absolutely. Frankly it’s been a reminder to be skeptical of foreign perspectives on American policy - including white foreigners. Most simply cannot entirely grasp the American ethos nor truly be committed to the idea that america is not winning if AMERICANS are not winning.
Ann Coulter has been vindicated here - you need at least 3-4 generations in this country. Minimum.
Correct. In a very really way, the sort of cultural ego death that occurred in the 20th century made it possible for the last wave of Americans to be "birthed."
Given the current pandering to ethnic resentment, few seem trustworthy. America is just a milkcow where the limits of a tolerant, trusting people are made abundantly clear.
I think WWII is probably the cut off - If no one in your family tree was old enough to serve, you’re unlikely to have been incubated in the cultural climate required to cultivate a truly American identity.
That could be an essay in itself but something about the culture of that era and the shared experience was the last time we hit the melting point as a people.
I know some would argue the civil war - but I’m a pre-1776 American and I think that’s too extreme.
Also, it is personal. Elon came in on an H1B as far as I know, and from all appearances is this most impressive man in the world behind Trump.
If I could speak to him personally, I suggest he find ways to identify talent like himself while massively restricting immigration. If he kills the host culture, where can he go and be what we recognize as Elon?
Probably.. but Elon’s proposals aren’t any better. We actually shouldn’t be letting in nearly as many foreign students. Qualified American kids shouldn’t be denied admission in favor of foreign kids, even if said kids are “more qualified.” American schools - even private - get significant amounts of taxpayer funding and should be for American kids. The fact that so many medical school and residency slots go to foreigners is a particularly egregious betrayal but this is true across the board for STEM programs and if not enough qualified American kids are applying the onus should be on the schools and our vaunted DoE to fix that.
Indians love to flex that 17% of doctors in the U.S. are Indian.. this is only evidence of how pernicious and damaging this population is. We have no shortage whatsoever of qualified American kids to fill every medical school slot 2x over and our healthcare system would be much better off for it. Many kids don’t even bother applying any more because they don’t believe they’ll get in.
One of my closest friends is a relatively recent grad female POC physician - but based. She has advised - only see a white or east asian male doctor. The older the better. The odds are that anyone else is either incompetent, unprofessional, or mentally ill.
I saw an article recently that there have never been more men pursuing nursing.. many profiled were white. why is that? Obvious - they’ve been boxed out of medical schools by Indians + other miscellaneous foreigners as white women have taken the spots allocated to us American chuds.
I'm sure he knows better than we do being that employs many more highly technical staff than most. I don't want HB1 visas for countries hostile to America or potentially use that technology to steal our technology which limits who you would hire. However our institutions have been severely compromised limiting the number of truly top tier high tech students. We as parents somehow raised entitled lazy children who don't have the knowledge, skills or wherewithal to excel. We need to face the fact we were not appropriately educated for many years. Some because of innocently trusting both well meaning teachers and those who wanted to compromise Americans. We as concerned citizens need to purposely teach our children, grand children and others those skills necessary to adequately prepare the next generation to be excellent. It's our responsibility to turn this ship around. and We need to ask ourselves hard questions about what does greatness look like and do the hard work needed or accept being compromised as a country.
All due respect to Elon but I actually am sure he doesn’t know better than I do. Elon’s companies no doubt really do hire the top 1% and he himself likely only interacts with the top .1%.
I have worked with hundreds of teams of Indians - literally thousands of H1B keyboard monkeys across the country at a large percentage of the Fortune 100 from entry level to senior execs. Elon simply doesn’t have exposure to the median H1B or have any sense how they’re leveraged outside of top tier tech - and he needs to recognize this limitation and defer to people who understand this issue more holistically.
The truth is that truly innovative and competitive companies like Tesla - or even Microsoft and Amazon - really don’t abuse H1Bs to the degree many other companies do. They really are recruiting talented people and hiring Americans in key roles. That’s also true of many high performing retailers, financial services companies, etc. The biggest abusers fall into three categories - too big to fail, dying stars, and dinosaurs so bloated the bedsores are hidden in the skin folds. These companies are betraying American workers by handing off hundreds of thousands of six figure jobs in every second tier metro in the country. An ironic artifact of this is that USPS has better and more innovative tech operations than FedEx or UPS. Why? Because they hire Americans.
Israel stands as a direct rebuttal to Elon’s entire argument - they do not import foreign tech talent. They are more innovative than India and have lower tech salaries than the U.S. using entirely home grown talent. Their median IQ isn’t much different than that of white and Hispanic Americans.
How do they manage this? By cultivating talent within their own population. Relentlessly. Anyone with any aptitude - male or female - is routed into tech roles right out of high school and graduate ready to fill any entry level tech job with or without a degree after 2 years of service.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. My main concern is we've not been watchmen on the wall and became distracted thus allowing our children to become victims to an evil corrupt political system including American Federation of Teachers and National Teachers Association. We need to become more active in the education of our children and in our communities.
> Option 1: H1B immigrant is less than 10% likely to be woke and is easy to bully into not becoming woke
> Option 2: American that is 70% likely to be woke
The tech right currently has a legally enforced Patron-Client relationship with immigrants. This is about loyalty/power not just money
Tech CEOs are right to expect some sort of patron client relationship from nationalists who regretfully don’t have institutions to form that relationship
Tech CEOs are actually largely hiring and exposed to competent H1-Bs so their perspective on the matter is limited and can even be in good faith (provided they’re not foreigners themselves.)
The main abuses of these programs are being executed by the Fortune 500. That’s where the lying, incompetent, fake degreed, low IQ nepotists are being hired at the expense of Americans. I actually can believe that Elon has no idea just how retarded and inefficient the average DevOps H1-B is at the average telco or retailer. It doesn’t even save these companies money since it generally requires 3 Indians to match the efficiency of one white guy… there are other incentives at play.
Furthermore due to the lottery nature of H1-B's the tech CEOs have to compete for slots with the Fortune 500 frauds. Thus from their point of view, there aren't enough slots.
BINGO. I’ve actually been very disappointed with this entire discourse because almost no one participating in it seems to understand the entire ecosystem. I hope behind the scenes there’s more informed voices involved because it’s not just us rank and file drones who know what’s happening.
I’ve worked with Indians at the top hard tech companies and it’s true that many of them are actually brilliant.. I’d argue they have other deficiencies but I wouldn’t dispute their competence or contributions. The real issue lies in the tiers below and any company venturing close to a tipping point which shifts the culture of innovation and excellence.
*My counter offer based on Musk’s offer yesterday: visas for those who score in the 99.9th percentile on the Graduate Record Exam in a test administered in the USA, not in Asia, with fingerprint and retina scans and all other anti-cheating technologies mandatory.*
How many foreigners did Bill Russell or MJ need to help their teams keep winning in the NBA?
How many foreigners did Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mickey need to help their teams keep winning in MLB?
How many foreigners did Joe Greene, Joe Montana, or Tom Brady need to help their teams win in the NFL?
Since these players played back in the day, these would be apt examples of "ourselves and our posterity" going it alone by relying upon home grown talent in their respective professions. Thus Musk's analogy falls apart that all of a sudden, the US "needs" all these H-1B foreigners to help assist with the US winning in Engineering, especially since it was the US that took the lead in developing the entire field of Engineering back some 100 yrs ago or so.
I find it very hard (and quite disingenuous on the part of the 1%) to believe that in a nation of some 330 million, that there aren't enough Engineering jobs that can be filled exclusively by native born Americans. But what I DO always find easy to believe, is that it is nearly always the top 1% that continue to make this argument.
And thus the counter argument to their statement should be: "Oh yeah? And what's in it for you if we do these things? How does it benefit you directly if we follow your advice?"
Also, to be consistent, one should be able to make this type of argument across the board--namely, to all first world nations.
After all, no one's going to China and stating "You know what your problem is? You simply don't have enough foreign born Engineers to help you keep winning in the field of Engineering. What you need to do is open up your jobs and fill them with foreigners. That way, you can maintain your dominance in Engineering and continue to win."
Just have to state the argument with the logical outcome, and the entire thing begins to fall apart.
of course there are exceptions like TR and according to simon sebag-montefiore the ultimate bugbear of the buggering bourgeoisie a mr josef vissarionovich dzhugashvili.
If Musk wants to employ the top 50% of engineers in the world, why not open Tesla and SpaceX offices all over the world? He could also use a lot of web meetings. If the workers are from all over the world, and sales are all over the world, why does it count as America winning if those people do their Tesla work in Scranton but doesn't count if they do it in Bombay? Is it a tax thing?
Interesting how it is forbidden to discuss how to increase reproduction among the more intelligent Americans (that's eugenics or would have obvious disparate impact) but it is ok to argue for the importation of high IQ from abroad.
The point of economic growth is supposed to be the improvement of the livelihood your own people. It’s amusing how many of the tech right have spent the discourse blaming Americans and calling them lazy or just scared of competition (neither of those two are true obviously, Americans are far more skilled and talented than foreigners, and the most talented immigrants are Europeans anyway), essentially implying that if Americans get screwed over well then so be it. Economic growth for the sake of growth is entirely meaningless and ignores why growth was even pursued in the first place.
There is a self-selection effect, i.e., not all people take the GRE. The IQ blogger Pumpkin Person has suggested GRE-takers in the 2020s may average around IQ108 on U.S.-white norms.
Elon Musk's plan would have everyone above IQ108, "waved in," or everyone who can cram to get a score on a test that purports to proxy for an IQ108. This would mean, drawing from the entire global non-Western, a number somewhere in the mid 'hundreds-of-millions' range (depending on what we set as global non-Western mean IQ). The number eligible would be several times the ethnocultural-core or 'base' element of the host-population in the USA (i.e., White-Christians).
"Elon Visas" for all! To be printed with a grinning Ramaswamy face on them, to assure authenticity, and bearing a fat signature with a flourish: "Dernald J. Blumpf."
Today, Elon reiterated his position against the small-minded bigots out there:
He says: "America rose to greatness over the past 150 years, because it was a meritocracy more than anywhere else on Earth. I will fight to my last drop of blood to ensure that it remains that land of freedom and opportunity"! (https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1872862144615838054).
And this: "The reason I’m in America along with so many critical people who built SpaceX, Tesla and hundreds of other companies that made America strong is because of H1B. // Take a big step back and FUCK YOURSELF in the face. I will go to war on this issue the likes of which you cannot possibly comprehend." (https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1872860577057448306).
The second one shows that Elon is starting to lose it. This whole issue was quite the unforced error from Elon and Vivek; Trump himself would have never made it but he is going to be responsible for cleaning it up. Trump is also going to find it's a lot easier to keep your coalition together when you are out of power than when you are in power
This debate has revealed to everyone just how much of a scam the H1B program is. People on X are posting job listings for cashiers, strippers (lol), truck drivers, hotel maids, interns, etc.
I’ll emphasize that those are outliers and far from the main concern, which is hundreds of thousands of well paying IT and soft tech roles being hijacked in every metro area across the country. This isn’t just Silicon Valley - it’s happening in Tampa, Arkansas, Minnesota, Arizona, and any other state red or blue. These roles pay six figures and are filled by enlistees with GEDs in the military but at every Fortune 500 they’re claiming that it’s necessary to import entire scam schools from India while illegally discriminating against white (and black and Hispanic) Americans for the few roles they open to U.S. citizens. These jobs absolutely pay well and those brought over are able to buy homes and cars comfortably - opportunities that are being taken from American college grads.
To clarify my point - they’re roles which in the military are filled by low-education Americans and thus do not require any specific “genius” level skill. A HS grad with 6-12 months of training can do entry level IT, SRE, or DBA work that were currently importing Vivek’s valedictorian cousins to do and these jobs pay six figures without exception.
My grandpa worked 40 years for Boeing as an engineer without a college degree. He dropped out of college to enlist in the Army Air Force in 1942 and never went back to school. He worked on all sorts of projects, including Apollo, Minuteman missiles and so on.
Maybe just let American boys take a math test and give them the job if they're bright enough. This college requirement is a big part of the problem.
Same story for my grandpa at a similar company. He grew up herding cattle in exchange for board, dropped out of schooling at 14, and when he got back from infantry in the Pacific theater became an engineer and rose to work with laser guided weapons by the time he retired.. without ever even finishing high school.
People like Vivek just cannot conceive of building a nation like this and neither can people like Elon, who has no connection to the frontier ethos that has defined the American economy and our system of meritocratic social mobility. It’s foreign to Brits too so by extension to British South Africans.
You need to read (quite) a bit more into Elon's history. He's all about frontiers...
Israel basically does this. Military psychometric funnels anyone promising into highly skilled roles which punch their ticket into competitive academics and high paying roles out of the army. They don’t import foreigners despite having a comparable
Median IQ to the U.S.
They haven’t sacrificed much in terms of innovation and their tech output exceeds that of India despite having a population that’s less than 1% of India’s.
Goes to show that H1Bs go hand in hand with affirmative action HR compliance bullshit.
Absolutely. Israel has a funny racial-economic breakdown with Ashkenazis on top, followed by “Arab” Christians, then the brown Jews, and finally the Muslim Arabs. Their elite military units and the tech roles downstream are overwhelmingly Ashkenazi from across every social class - including kids from impoverished Russian immigrant families- and it’s not especially controversial. Meritocracy above all.
The problem with math tests - if you go to flying things you need vector calculus - is that will be definitely white suprematist, roflol
This debate has also revealed that there is no such thing as a "moderate" or "compromise" position when negotiating with the "infinity immigrants" fanatics. If you take the "compromise", "moderate", or "midway" position, you are effectively settling for half of infinity. Which is still infinity.
Once you concede legitimacy, you are stuck forever after trying to stem the tsunami tide you unleash. The real choice, then, is either keep the tide out or be washed away.
"Oh, but I only want to suffer the moderate tsunami," means you are going to drown, along with everyone else you recklessly endangered.
"This debate has also revealed that there is no such thing as a "moderate" or "compromise" position when negotiating with the "infinity immigrants" fanatics. If you take the "compromise", "moderate", or "midway" position, you are effectively settling for half of infinity. Which is still infinity."
Japan does not take immigrants. How is that working out form them? And how is one going to keep out immigrants with the massive land borders that the U.S. has?
Yes, distributing immigration slots via a lottery is not the best idea.
Elon is exposing how limited the scope of his perspective and knowledge of this topic is.
We’ve gone to allowing in a couple essential geniuses to merely everyone who is “above average?” Above the 50th percentile in the GRE is probably somewhere around the equivalent of a 580 on the Quant portion of the SAT today, and this sort of incentive would result in literally MILLIONS of Indians and Chinese taking the GRE and subsequently dragging that median down even further. Does Elon plan to cap the number of people who qualify for this plan? Or just let in millions if that’s how many qualify? Is he going to found new universities to accommodate all these students or just incentivize American universities to accept them all since they pay higher tuition rates than American kids?
Let’s all hope Trump is listening to Stephen Miller on this one.
Presumably, it is just spitballing, but Elon really showed his ass on this one.
Absolutely. Frankly it’s been a reminder to be skeptical of foreign perspectives on American policy - including white foreigners. Most simply cannot entirely grasp the American ethos nor truly be committed to the idea that america is not winning if AMERICANS are not winning.
Ann Coulter has been vindicated here - you need at least 3-4 generations in this country. Minimum.
Correct. In a very really way, the sort of cultural ego death that occurred in the 20th century made it possible for the last wave of Americans to be "birthed."
Given the current pandering to ethnic resentment, few seem trustworthy. America is just a milkcow where the limits of a tolerant, trusting people are made abundantly clear.
I think WWII is probably the cut off - If no one in your family tree was old enough to serve, you’re unlikely to have been incubated in the cultural climate required to cultivate a truly American identity.
That could be an essay in itself but something about the culture of that era and the shared experience was the last time we hit the melting point as a people.
I know some would argue the civil war - but I’m a pre-1776 American and I think that’s too extreme.
It’s not because he’s a foreigner, it’s because he’s a high functioning autistic. His judgement is poor on non-technical matters.
Also, it is personal. Elon came in on an H1B as far as I know, and from all appearances is this most impressive man in the world behind Trump.
If I could speak to him personally, I suggest he find ways to identify talent like himself while massively restricting immigration. If he kills the host culture, where can he go and be what we recognize as Elon?
He might be responding to Trump saying that anyone who even graduates from community college should get an automatic green card.
Probably.. but Elon’s proposals aren’t any better. We actually shouldn’t be letting in nearly as many foreign students. Qualified American kids shouldn’t be denied admission in favor of foreign kids, even if said kids are “more qualified.” American schools - even private - get significant amounts of taxpayer funding and should be for American kids. The fact that so many medical school and residency slots go to foreigners is a particularly egregious betrayal but this is true across the board for STEM programs and if not enough qualified American kids are applying the onus should be on the schools and our vaunted DoE to fix that.
Indians love to flex that 17% of doctors in the U.S. are Indian.. this is only evidence of how pernicious and damaging this population is. We have no shortage whatsoever of qualified American kids to fill every medical school slot 2x over and our healthcare system would be much better off for it. Many kids don’t even bother applying any more because they don’t believe they’ll get in.
Try to find a non-terrifying primary care doc who is taking new patients. We've already screwed ourselves seven different ways.
One of my closest friends is a relatively recent grad female POC physician - but based. She has advised - only see a white or east asian male doctor. The older the better. The odds are that anyone else is either incompetent, unprofessional, or mentally ill.
Trust me, I'm in a position to know, and so I do :)
I saw an article recently that there have never been more men pursuing nursing.. many profiled were white. why is that? Obvious - they’ve been boxed out of medical schools by Indians + other miscellaneous foreigners as white women have taken the spots allocated to us American chuds.
I'm sure he knows better than we do being that employs many more highly technical staff than most. I don't want HB1 visas for countries hostile to America or potentially use that technology to steal our technology which limits who you would hire. However our institutions have been severely compromised limiting the number of truly top tier high tech students. We as parents somehow raised entitled lazy children who don't have the knowledge, skills or wherewithal to excel. We need to face the fact we were not appropriately educated for many years. Some because of innocently trusting both well meaning teachers and those who wanted to compromise Americans. We as concerned citizens need to purposely teach our children, grand children and others those skills necessary to adequately prepare the next generation to be excellent. It's our responsibility to turn this ship around. and We need to ask ourselves hard questions about what does greatness look like and do the hard work needed or accept being compromised as a country.
All due respect to Elon but I actually am sure he doesn’t know better than I do. Elon’s companies no doubt really do hire the top 1% and he himself likely only interacts with the top .1%.
I have worked with hundreds of teams of Indians - literally thousands of H1B keyboard monkeys across the country at a large percentage of the Fortune 100 from entry level to senior execs. Elon simply doesn’t have exposure to the median H1B or have any sense how they’re leveraged outside of top tier tech - and he needs to recognize this limitation and defer to people who understand this issue more holistically.
The truth is that truly innovative and competitive companies like Tesla - or even Microsoft and Amazon - really don’t abuse H1Bs to the degree many other companies do. They really are recruiting talented people and hiring Americans in key roles. That’s also true of many high performing retailers, financial services companies, etc. The biggest abusers fall into three categories - too big to fail, dying stars, and dinosaurs so bloated the bedsores are hidden in the skin folds. These companies are betraying American workers by handing off hundreds of thousands of six figure jobs in every second tier metro in the country. An ironic artifact of this is that USPS has better and more innovative tech operations than FedEx or UPS. Why? Because they hire Americans.
Israel stands as a direct rebuttal to Elon’s entire argument - they do not import foreign tech talent. They are more innovative than India and have lower tech salaries than the U.S. using entirely home grown talent. Their median IQ isn’t much different than that of white and Hispanic Americans.
How do they manage this? By cultivating talent within their own population. Relentlessly. Anyone with any aptitude - male or female - is routed into tech roles right out of high school and graduate ready to fill any entry level tech job with or without a degree after 2 years of service.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. My main concern is we've not been watchmen on the wall and became distracted thus allowing our children to become victims to an evil corrupt political system including American Federation of Teachers and National Teachers Association. We need to become more active in the education of our children and in our communities.
The calculus of tech CEOs who dislike woke
> Option 1: H1B immigrant is less than 10% likely to be woke and is easy to bully into not becoming woke
> Option 2: American that is 70% likely to be woke
The tech right currently has a legally enforced Patron-Client relationship with immigrants. This is about loyalty/power not just money
Tech CEOs are right to expect some sort of patron client relationship from nationalists who regretfully don’t have institutions to form that relationship
Tech CEOs are actually largely hiring and exposed to competent H1-Bs so their perspective on the matter is limited and can even be in good faith (provided they’re not foreigners themselves.)
The main abuses of these programs are being executed by the Fortune 500. That’s where the lying, incompetent, fake degreed, low IQ nepotists are being hired at the expense of Americans. I actually can believe that Elon has no idea just how retarded and inefficient the average DevOps H1-B is at the average telco or retailer. It doesn’t even save these companies money since it generally requires 3 Indians to match the efficiency of one white guy… there are other incentives at play.
Furthermore due to the lottery nature of H1-B's the tech CEOs have to compete for slots with the Fortune 500 frauds. Thus from their point of view, there aren't enough slots.
BINGO. I’ve actually been very disappointed with this entire discourse because almost no one participating in it seems to understand the entire ecosystem. I hope behind the scenes there’s more informed voices involved because it’s not just us rank and file drones who know what’s happening.
I’ve worked with Indians at the top hard tech companies and it’s true that many of them are actually brilliant.. I’d argue they have other deficiencies but I wouldn’t dispute their competence or contributions. The real issue lies in the tiers below and any company venturing close to a tipping point which shifts the culture of innovation and excellence.
I've seen a few posts on twitter making intelligent points.
And now I can't find those tweets again.
Ok, found those tweets. Here is a meta-thread that links to a number of good threads:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1873199173568479420.html
This being a particularly good one:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1872661626702463300.html
It's the kind of analysis Steve Sailer would do, if he was good at analyzing economics.
And another great tweet.
https://x.com/robbystarbuck/status/1873140456491544841
*My counter offer based on Musk’s offer yesterday: visas for those who score in the 99.9th percentile on the Graduate Record Exam in a test administered in the USA, not in Asia, with fingerprint and retina scans and all other anti-cheating technologies mandatory.*
This is a panty dropper, Steve.
"Americans first" is my new political mantra
How many foreigners did Bill Russell or MJ need to help their teams keep winning in the NBA?
How many foreigners did Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mickey need to help their teams keep winning in MLB?
How many foreigners did Joe Greene, Joe Montana, or Tom Brady need to help their teams win in the NFL?
Since these players played back in the day, these would be apt examples of "ourselves and our posterity" going it alone by relying upon home grown talent in their respective professions. Thus Musk's analogy falls apart that all of a sudden, the US "needs" all these H-1B foreigners to help assist with the US winning in Engineering, especially since it was the US that took the lead in developing the entire field of Engineering back some 100 yrs ago or so.
I find it very hard (and quite disingenuous on the part of the 1%) to believe that in a nation of some 330 million, that there aren't enough Engineering jobs that can be filled exclusively by native born Americans. But what I DO always find easy to believe, is that it is nearly always the top 1% that continue to make this argument.
And thus the counter argument to their statement should be: "Oh yeah? And what's in it for you if we do these things? How does it benefit you directly if we follow your advice?"
Also, to be consistent, one should be able to make this type of argument across the board--namely, to all first world nations.
After all, no one's going to China and stating "You know what your problem is? You simply don't have enough foreign born Engineers to help you keep winning in the field of Engineering. What you need to do is open up your jobs and fill them with foreigners. That way, you can maintain your dominance in Engineering and continue to win."
Just have to state the argument with the logical outcome, and the entire thing begins to fall apart.
I suggest a compromise immigration platform:
1. Israel-style right-of-return for all whites who wish to immigrate to America.
2. Double immigration numbers for every other category, even refugees/diversity visa/etc.
What would that accomplish, other than making the US even more crowded, polluted and corrupt?
"crowded"
This is a problem that can easily be solved by moving to a small city or rural area.
Not sure why you think my more and whiter immigrants idea would make America more corrupt.
There aren't enough Anglo-Europeans out there clamoring to get into Amerikwa to counter your category 2.
We will have to keep an eye on him. Vivek too, who I hear is an American libertarian, whatever that means. I know Mickey Kaus is incensed.
Where did you see Mickey voicing his opinion on Vivek (or Musk or Trump II)?
https://x.com/kausmickey/status/1872546912529961282
Thanks, somehow I missed following him. Rectified.
Mickey has always been early and (mostly) right on immigration and social equality.
See this:
https://www.newsweek.com/vivek-ramaswamy-fraud-always-has-been-opinion-1823853
musk was supposedly accepted to stanford for some sort of graduate degree.
what were his GREs? there's a general and usually a subject.
maybe not so high and thus he just wants to use such to eliminate diploma mills like he says.
steve is an autistic little girl who doesn't grok that the rich and powerful and famous are NOT especially smart. NOT!
deal with reality steve. it SUCKS!
of course there are exceptions like TR and according to simon sebag-montefiore the ultimate bugbear of the buggering bourgeoisie a mr josef vissarionovich dzhugashvili.
99.9 percentile is too high. 98 seems more realistic and still bound to be worth it.
Musk/Vivek: Race doesn't exist but we need Indians and East Asians because they're smarter than [White] Americans.
A nation as a professional sportsball team pretty much sums up everything wrong with our culture, or lack thereof.
All so tiresome.
And Trump has signaled her agrees with them.
If Musk wants to employ the top 50% of engineers in the world, why not open Tesla and SpaceX offices all over the world? He could also use a lot of web meetings. If the workers are from all over the world, and sales are all over the world, why does it count as America winning if those people do their Tesla work in Scranton but doesn't count if they do it in Bombay? Is it a tax thing?
> If Musk wants to employ the top 50% of engineers in the world, why not open Tesla and SpaceX offices all over the world?
He very well might end up doing that. At which point, you'd get mad at him for outsourcing.
I would not
Interesting how it is forbidden to discuss how to increase reproduction among the more intelligent Americans (that's eugenics or would have obvious disparate impact) but it is ok to argue for the importation of high IQ from abroad.
> Interesting how it is forbidden to discuss how to increase reproduction among the more intelligent Americans
Um, Elon has been sponsoring discussions of just that.
https://www.natalism.org/
The point of economic growth is supposed to be the improvement of the livelihood your own people. It’s amusing how many of the tech right have spent the discourse blaming Americans and calling them lazy or just scared of competition (neither of those two are true obviously, Americans are far more skilled and talented than foreigners, and the most talented immigrants are Europeans anyway), essentially implying that if Americans get screwed over well then so be it. Economic growth for the sake of growth is entirely meaningless and ignores why growth was even pursued in the first place.
What is the GRE-50%ile IQ?
There is a self-selection effect, i.e., not all people take the GRE. The IQ blogger Pumpkin Person has suggested GRE-takers in the 2020s may average around IQ108 on U.S.-white norms.
Elon Musk's plan would have everyone above IQ108, "waved in," or everyone who can cram to get a score on a test that purports to proxy for an IQ108. This would mean, drawing from the entire global non-Western, a number somewhere in the mid 'hundreds-of-millions' range (depending on what we set as global non-Western mean IQ). The number eligible would be several times the ethnocultural-core or 'base' element of the host-population in the USA (i.e., White-Christians).
"Elon Visas" for all! To be printed with a grinning Ramaswamy face on them, to assure authenticity, and bearing a fat signature with a flourish: "Dernald J. Blumpf."
Today, Elon reiterated his position against the small-minded bigots out there:
He says: "America rose to greatness over the past 150 years, because it was a meritocracy more than anywhere else on Earth. I will fight to my last drop of blood to ensure that it remains that land of freedom and opportunity"! (https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1872862144615838054).
And this: "The reason I’m in America along with so many critical people who built SpaceX, Tesla and hundreds of other companies that made America strong is because of H1B. // Take a big step back and FUCK YOURSELF in the face. I will go to war on this issue the likes of which you cannot possibly comprehend." (https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1872860577057448306).
Uh oh...
The second one shows that Elon is starting to lose it. This whole issue was quite the unforced error from Elon and Vivek; Trump himself would have never made it but he is going to be responsible for cleaning it up. Trump is also going to find it's a lot easier to keep your coalition together when you are out of power than when you are in power
Elon has poor judgement outside of tech matters. He’s high functioning autistic and needs close supervision.
In other words, this issue is going to have to get addressed at some point. I'm not sure now is the worst time to start.