Can’t say Philly fans are the best. Loyal, yes. Boisterous, yes. Best? No. Too many a’holes who are drunk and ready to fight anyone in opposing team colors. It’s sports, everybody relax.
Should have known better than to ask me this question. I have an obvious bias.
Though, albeit from afar, I've seen in the St. Louis news station sports sections that so far this young season, attendance is down, including both the lowest and second lowest attendances in the history of the current Busch Stadium (2006-Present). The gossip is that the fanbase is angry at the GM and ownership for doing nothing in the offseason.
But, what are you saying is that St. Louis Cardinal fans going back a century, to Branch Rickey inventing baseball's minor league farm system, have expected excellence?
Downtown St. Louis going down the tubes thanks to Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner and Black Lives Matter is also a factor. Businesses are fleeing the City because of increased crime
Much of Baltimore is the same kind of dead. I'd be afraid to be more than one block from the stadiums. One of my first dates with my future bride was to see the USS Constellation. I wouldn't go now. Or to the Aquarium or Harbor Place.
Gardner is gone. Her replacement is black, but reasonable. That, and St. Louis City's violent crime is down some from its 2020 high; Regression to the mean. The team drew its usual numbers even through the highest crime years (not counting Covid). It means the sharply declined numbers are due to fan frustration rather than fear of crime.
I came here to post exact this; while it doesn't negate Steve's overall point, there has been a lot of chatter on Twitter about the Cardinals' mid-week attendance, which has been at less-than-half capacity despite playing in a relatively small park in the first place
To be fair, it has been a very cool Spring in much of America. It is April 15 and I'm going to start a fire in my wood stove after supper. If baseball was smart, they'd play as many games in April in Florida, California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada and Georgia.
I used to go to the Scottish Festival every year here in South Florida and I would have to say that the participants of the caber toss and the crowds that are watching them are some of the best crowds you're ever going to see watching a sport I remember one year one gentleman almost lost control of his caber which is a small telephone pole he's trying to flip upside down and land on its end and there was some people in the wheelchair near the edge of the field and the cable landed like 10 ft from them and they just sat there and politely applauded with everyone else no fuss no muss it was a near miss.
Hey Steve. I'd have to say that attending the Master's, even if its the practice round, is a special experience unrivaled by any other sport. I also appreciate the Master's committee's focus on integrity and maintaining a decorum that's missing completely from ALL other major sporting events. That said unfortunately legalized scalping has caught onto what a bargain the Master's is and has ruined the experience, and costs, for the ordinary fan. I live in Georgia and used to be able to get tickets about every two or three years and haven't since 2013 although I apply every year.
Another negative trend I noticed this year was the hats Augusta National was selling. In the past everything stuck to their well established brand in green or white. This year they sold hats with words like Pimento (for their famous pimento cheese sandwiches) or "azalea" in what looked like a tasteless money grab. There were also a couple of videos that popped up on the Masters feed of social media influencers talking about fashion. I hope this doesn't go the way of the Kentucky Derby and become popular as a destination for people who know nothing about golf.
I looked into getting tickets for one of the Masters practice days. The scalper wanted $1500 and would not guarantee that the tickets would get you in. So I keep entering the lottery.
> That said unfortunately legalized scalping has caught onto what a bargain the Master's is and has ruined the experience, and costs, for the ordinary fan. I live in Georgia and used to be able to get tickets about every two or three years and haven't since 2013 although I apply every year.<
With today's technology it should be a pretty straightforward to fix this. Tie the ticket to a particular name and DL--or passport.
Not really surprising though. America is now run by a coalition of scalpers, gate crashers and other assorted parasites.
The Washington Redskins once had the fanatical devotion of its fans as far back as the Sammy Baugh era through a bad patch after World War Two and then the short-lived Vince Lombardi era followed by the George Allen era and then the Joe Gibbs era. The waiting list for season tickets was as high as 100,000. But the Dan Snyder era destroyed that, a slow-motion catastrophe. Beyond Dan Snyder's self-destructiveness, the collapse of the devotion of Washington to its Redskins is also a result of Washington being more of a transitory city over the past forty years as the government greatly expanded as did the lobbying force. Most Washingtonians in 1970 were born and raised in the Washington area. That's not the case any longer. People come to Washington from all over the country and the world to get on the Washington gravy train. Sports bars all over the Washington area have Sundays dedicated to the teams of other cities- the Chicago Bears, the Dallas Cowboys, the Green Bay Packers, the Pittsburgh Steelers and many others except, perhaps, the Jacksonville Jaguars.
The most evil sports fans are those of Philadelphia. I don't know why. They even used to boo Mike Schmidt. But I do find it fitting that the Flyers haven't won a Stanley Cup for nearly fifty years after they bullied their way to two in a row in the mid-70s. It is so sweet.
It took the Phillies a while to get over the hump- the Pittsburgh Pirates. Schmidt could be a feast or famine hitter and when he and the Phillies slumped at the same time, the home fans let Schmidt know their displeasure.
More than any other NHL team, the Philadelphia Flyers have been coasting on their reputation for the last 50 years. The NFL equivalent is the Miami Dolphins
Some politicians never leave. Look at someone like Trent Lott. He lives somewhere in Northern Virginia and never went back to Mississippi. A lot of government workers end up being consultants for industries that they once regulated.
He's not someone anyone has never heard of, but the dean of the New Jersey congressional delegation is Chris Smith who was first elected in 1980 when the incumbent was caught up in AbScam. Smith has been in congress for so long that his current district includes no towns that were in his original district. Anyway the big criticism of him is that no longer lives in New Jersey and spends the vast majority of his time in Northern Virginia, yet his deep-red central New Jersey district keeps reëlecting him, only falling below 60 percent once in the last 40 years
Chris Smith was elected in 1980 to the House in a Democratic district because his Democratic competitor, Frank Thompson, was part of the Abscam scandal. Thompson ended up spending time in prison. Smith was not corrupt and is a good man. However, he's been around too long and has become a poster boy for why we need term limits. Forty-five years in the House is too long. As you explain, he doesn't even represent any of his original district.
My peripatetic career allowed me years of attendance at The Open, as well as membership at Royal Melbourne. I salute the Scots for knowledgeable dedication as they often stand for hours in a cold drizzle. The Australians have way more fun, while also knowing what’s happening. Sadly, the American fellow shouting “in the hole” has crossed Atlantic and Pacific to add to everyone’s enjoyment.
>Sadly, the American fellow shouting “in the hole” has crossed Atlantic and Pacific to add to everyone’s enjoyment.<
The golf spectator equivalent of tattoos. The person who started this should be found and executed. And any asshole shouting "get in the hole!" should be tossed off the grounds. It's a golf tournament not a porn flick.
I marshalled the first President’s Cup played there in ‘98. The USA players seemed naive and less mature than Els and Singh and Price and Norman. They were never in the match.
It’s a wonderful course. No tee times! I never waited more than a half hour to tee off.
There was a time in rugby in the 1980s when the All Blacks were virtually unbeatable as shown by the way they dominated the inaugural world cup. That team was built around the Auckland rugby team who won the Ranfurly Shield (a home field challenge trophy) in 1985 and held it till 1993 through 148 defences.
Strangely, the Auckland crowd was neither vocal or particularly large (it might have only filled half of the large Eden Park stadium) and was a crowd that was scrupulously polite in not offering a sound when opponents took a kick for goal.
But what really distinguished the crowd as both discriminating and loyal (in a manner that must have been soul destroying for opposition teams and supporters) was the way that at half time a large proportion of the crowd would pack up their gear and move to the other end where the opposition was defending as this is where they knew all the try scoring action would be. Was perfectly normal to see one end of the arena relatively empty while the other half was packed depending which way the home team was playing.
Very different vibe, but the crowds for the annual Rugby Sevens in Hong Kong (which the All Blacks also dominated for many years, although less so now) are fantastic. The atmosphere is light-hearted, convivial, and simply fun.
Although rugby looks like a blue-collar sport, its roots, and many of its fans, still, are upper-middle to upper class (cf. its name, of course). I see plenty of evidence of this at the HK 7s.
Football/soccer seems to many strive-y middle class Americans to be a more cerebral and genteel game, because it's 'European'. But in the UK, for example, football is lower class, and has scary fans you really don't want to get on the wrong side of.
I've never been (but it was on NZ TV from quite early on) and yes the Hong Kong Sevens seemed to have a very jolly wealthy ex-pats vibe from back before the island was returned and I think they tried to retain that as a selling point and expand it for the whole international circuit. Which to be fair had some success although it doesn't quite gel with the ultra-competitive professional nature of the modern sport, to my mind.
As for football, it is a strange dichotomy between the world's sport and the US version. I went to a Leeds away match at Selhurst Park, in London a few years ago and although to me it had a very celebratory feel, the large police presence and particularly the bullying by police horses provided a glimpse of what it must have been like. A few of the locals gave hints of what it was like in their youth and for the main it seemed like it was something they remembered fondly, strangely enough.
The atmosphere at the HK 7s would be hard to duplicate elsewhere. You're right that some of it rests on there being plenty of expats from a variety of countries competing, which means there's no Us vs Them vibe as at a normal match. And I agree it's got a kind of throwback feel; it reminds me of the Quidditch Cup scenes at the beginning of one of the Harry Potter movies. It's also Commonwealth-specific; I don't think there's anything quite like it in American sports.
The 7s moved to HK's brand-new stadium this year, which holds about 50K. I didn't go this year, but from all accounts it was generally a success. Everybody seems to like the stadium. There are still plenty of wealthy expats here to attend, BTW.
Not sure what the best crowds are, but unfortunately the atmospheres across the board are getting worse. The average age of crowds at sporting events used to be younger, but with ticket prices being what they are, mainly older people really have the disposable income to go.
I live in NYC and while going to MSG for Knicks and Rangers is still great, the crowds have gotten more reserved as the attendees are older and wealthier.
This probably skews heavier for the major metro areas and for the bigger games, but it’s just kinda sad to see and I’m not sure what the solution is.
I will say though that it’s funny to see the contrast between the Masters crowd and the drunken frat fest that’s become to Waste Management Phoenix Open.
What impresses me most about pro golfers is not their skills -- which exist on a celestial plane far, far beyond my apprehension -- but rather their ability to do what they do with screeching crowds right up in their faces. It's amazing.
I went the full week to both 2022 St Andrews and 2019 Masters. Great fans. Hard to tell difference. St Andrews a little rowdier as there are bars right outside the gates. All in all very well behaved.
Best fans. - someone said Knicks fans at MSG and I can see that. Sat in front of two 9-year-old kids last year and they knew everything about the players, game etc. amazing knowledge. Goes for NY Rangers fans as well.
Buffalo Bills fans are great and loyal. Most fun fans are Cubs fans at Wrigley during day game. No place in the world better than Chicago on a day game day. I moved to that city just for that experience. The rest of the world is in their office cubicles at 11 AM on a Tuesday and you’re partying with hundreds of fun, attractive people. What’s not to like.
MMA fans are decent but too many tattoos. The tattooed have to be having some pangs of regret. How’s that barbed wire tattoo working out?
Philly Eagles fans are the worst. A gross town w gross people. lol. Philly got stuck with the ugly Italians as the handsome ones stayed in NYC area.
DC Wizards fans are some of the worst. Last game I went to I stood in line for beer at bar and line kept getting longer as the brothers kept cutting in front of me. I would’ve said something but I didn’t want to be stabbed in the heart.
I like the Mexican soccer fans who make US sissified liberal soccer fans cry for yelling a “racist” chant. They’re the best in my book.
I have read that Wizards fans are 50 % black, probably the largest black percentage of blacks for any major sport. The black butting in line is historic. I even remember blacks butting in line for the rides at King's Dominion way back in the 70s. They just can't help themselves.
In the second episode of Saturday Night Live, Paul Simon played Connie Hawkins of the Atlanta Hawks in a competitive game of one-on-one, although the fix may have been in
I had partially written a nice post that included the Cubs and Wrigley Field fans among other observations, but your post nicely encapsulates most of what I wanted to say, sans my specific experiences.
Generations of families who have played and cheered the team for better or worse. Right tackle who plays tuba in the band at halftime. Best Burgers ever.
Pro sumo has its grand sumo tournaments only in Japan, and only in 4 locations: Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, and Fukuoka. Pro sumo has no weight classes, and the people sitting up-front around the ring are either wrestlers waiting their turn, the judges, or diehard fans just waiting for a wrestler to fall on them (a thrill). You can be a fan of multiple wrestlers, though people usually have one or two they prefer, and talk about 3-d! The matches are over in a matter of seconds, and you have to pay close attention to strategy. It's not always the bigger guy who wins -- applied physics!
The most thrilling bouts are when a low-ranked guy topples a Yokozuna (gold star win) - and the fans throw their cushions. During the pandemic, people politely clapped (didn't yell, that would be germ-spreading) ... but the cushion-throwing is now back, and I'm happy for it. (mind you, you're not -supposed- to throw cushions, but this is a "rule" the Japanese will break.)
There is a fan movement to force the owner, Bob Nutting, to sell. They're taking a holistic approach and will try to make this an issue in upcoming municipal elections. Since the city owns PNC Park and is losing revenue because of the team's poor performance, they want government officials to help pressure Nutting to either sell or improve the team.
Not to be a pedant (thereby indicating that I probably am), but bullfighting isn't considered a sport in Spain. This is an unsurprisingly common misapprehension, maybe especially among Anglophones: after all, our word for it would seem to indicate that it's like boxing or MMA or whatever, and as a result English-speaking critics of the phenomenon will often complain that it's unfair.
But bullfighting isn't supposed to be fair or even a fight, despite the fact that one of the two main participants ends up dead in the vast majority of Spanish bullfights, almost always the bull. It's a ritual and a spectacle, often referred to as "La Fiesta Nacional"–an expression akin to "The National Pastime" for baseball, but with additional implications. In the newspapers, bullfighting is covered in its own slot, typically right between Arts and Sports, which sort of makes sense.
Anyway, yeah: bullfighting fans tend to be extremely knowledgeable about bullfighting. (An anthropology professor who was my uncle-in-law when I was married into that culture and lived in Seville for most of the 1990s took matters a step further by founding an academic review devoted to the subject: La Revista de Estudios Taurinos.) And this is officially recognized when a bullfight plays out: famously, the fans' response affects the trophies awarded the bullfighter (one ear, both ears, the ears and the tail).
I attended a bullfight back then at Seville's Maestranza bullring–the second most important in Spain after Madrid–when the newly full-fledged bullfighter Vicente Barrera (whose father himself was a so-so bullfighter and insisted on his son's getting a law degree before following him into the profession) secured the maximum triumph there: the right to be carried out through the main gate, the Puerta del Principe. The video used to be available on YouTube, and the crowd response is electric. But I guess it's been taken down for showing a lawyer killing two bulls with a sword.
No, the imminent and potentially lethal threat of a half-ton raging bull makes people take it a lot more seriously than that–particularly the bullfighter and his (or her) subalterns.
Well, it's not particular sporting, is it. But actually I understand that killing animals was generally considered necessary once upon a time for it to be considered sport. Fox hunting, game bird shooting, bear, badger and bull and even rat baiting, coursing, rabbiting with ferrets and cockfighting were all considered sports, although their was apparently a differentiation or grey area with baiting and cockfighting which involved animals alone. Playing around with a ball or bat was considered to be games.
I guess things change over time-most of the animals are probably pleased about that
My theory is that golf is the bourgeois version of aristocratic bloodsports adapted for the less bloodthirsty tastes of white collar workers. You wander around the landscape and occasionally take dead aim with your club to try to shoot a birdie. That would help explain why golf skews a lot more masculine in its appeal (e.g., most of the great American team sport athletes retire to the golf course and 12 of the last 15 Presidents have been golfers, all but one of the 12 being at one point or another an enthusiast) than the mild physical demands of the game would suggest.
I think the physical nature of golf gets undervalued a little and it can obviously vary depending on the use of carts and caddies. But remembering back to Casey Martin there was somewhat of an odour to his being allowed to compete with a cart.
The average golfer probably makes 50 to 60 solid swings as well as lifting and setting down a 25 pound bag which he then carries for perhaps five miles. It might not be paratrooper or ranger level but it's not nothing. They might do a bit extra but it seems to keep Tiger and Rory pretty fit
I don’t golf, nor do I watch it, but I find your writing on the subject interesting enough to join those who recommend you write a book on the subject. If George Will could write a baseball book…
Yes, as I think I commented years ago at Unz, the most golf-like non-golf experiences I've had are driven pheasant shoots in England. The analogies are as you say, plus at least a couple more. To get to your peg you'll typically walk through a grassy area surrounded by woodland, which is maintained by the landowner specifically to facilitate the activity. Plus you effectively have a caddie: your loader, who carries your gun for you, gets it ready etc., and indicates where the birds will be coming in and how high.
One character in "Vanity Fair" is an Oxford student, grandson of an aristocrat, who is destined for the clergy. His obsessive interests are dogfighting and ratcatching dogs.
My parents, who were from the upper Midwest, went to a bullfight in Mexico before I was born. They didn't like it, just as they didn't like boxing the one time they went to the Friday night fights in the 1950s. My engineer dad's idea of a good spectator sport was a track meet. (Which I quite like.)
The other contenders for greatest lunatics on wheels are the Scandinavians who race motorcycles on ice tracks, using sheet metal screws in the tires for “traction.” I remember seeing that on Wide World of Sports fifty years ago.
WWoS used to show the All-Ireland Hurling final; another game in which men strike balls with sticks.
It all depends on the bullfighters: it's best to find something with an established star who's still pretty young or, ideally, a well-regarded kid on the way up. I would avoid novilladas (in which probationary teenaged proto-bullfighters take on smaller bulls and generally do very badly out of nerves and fear) and also anything involving an old star, who's probably gonna be phoning it in: cowardly and tentative. I can't really tell you who's who these days, but you can ask around.
Then there's a rejoneo, which is a bullfight done entirely on horseback. Pretty interesting if you like that sort of thing.
I only know bullrings in Andalusia, which is where I lived. The Maestranza bullring in Seville is fantastic, as is (famously, thanks to Orson Welles) the bullring in Ronda, where modern bullfighting was basically invented by Pedro Romero in the late 18th century. I also love Sanlúcar de Barrameda and El Puerto de Santa María, down in the sherry triangle in the province of Cádiz. But there are a lot of good bullrings all over the place, and it largely depends on whether there are bullfights where you are when you're there.
The single most Spanish building I can think of is a bullring that's also partly a fortification and former mosque built on a Visigothic church in Almonaster la Real, in the mountains of Huelva. Look it up: it's wild. Almonaster is well worth a visit for that and other reasons, although you're unlikely to coincide with a bullfight as I think they only have a couple a year.
I envy you your time in Seville. Mrs C and I visited there a couple of years ago, and were blown away -- what a remarkable place it is. We also visited Cordoba and Granada, and a couple of smaller Andalusian towns, and couldn't get enough of the area. We'll be going back -- soon, I hope.
I don't know if I could do a bullfight. I'm not really a soft-hearted type, but getting ritualistically stabby with animals just sets me off. I appreciate your comments on it very much, though -- very insightful.
Yeah, Andalusia is pretty great. I don't blame you for not wanting to go to a bullfight: not everyone's cup of tea to put it mildly. I ended up liking it to my great surprise, and I'm not sure that fact speaks well of me.
Here's some footage that remains on YouTube of that bullfighter/lawyer Vicente Barrera doing what's called a tentadero, which involves bullfighting technique but no bloodletting at all. Basically a bull breeder will invite an established bullfighter to the ranch to practice with the heifers to see which ones seem to behave most like fighting bulls in order to decide which ones to breed. So the bullfighter gets a bit of practice, generates some goodwill with the breeder (which is good professionally), and then has drinks and a great meal with everyone in attendance at the end. (Once the bullfighter is finished with a heifer, they let other people get in and have a go, which I've done, and I can't tell you how nerve-wracking that is even with an animal that size.) https://youtu.be/87ODIZzhno8
Hemingway maintained that there are only three sports: Mountain climbing, motor racing, and bullfighting. All the rest being games. I’m surprised he didn’t include boxing.
Other than the Isle of Man TT, I'm not sure that motor racing would still make the cut. I was listening to some old Beach Boys songs and what they happily sing about as the teenage dream is frankly terrifying in terms of speeds that equate to today but with no apparent safety
I can recall learning about the Isle of Man races 55 years ago in Sports Illustrated and ABC's "Wide World of Sports." Are there still mass market media like that that introduces people to foreign and/or aristocratic sports?
When I go to ESPN.com these days, I note that the most strongly featured tab is "NFL." It's April 16, the least footballish day of the year.
I can recall reading in the Guinness Book of World Records when I was 10 or 11 that the highest pay ever for a journalist was whatever the nascent Sports Illustrated offered Hemingway for 1500 words on bullfighting.
The Cardinal fans are a good choice. They cheer outstanding plays by opponents. And when an outfielder misses a cutoff man, you can almost hear the collective gasp of disdain.
I still remember the Sacramento Kings fans giving John Stockton and Karl Malone standing ovations after the Kings finally mastered the Jazz at the end of Stockton's career.
I’ve been to a number of different MLB parks and never felt like I saw a bad crowd. I’m biased, but none of them had the intensity of a Fenway crowd. It seemed like 90 pct of the crowd reacted to every single pitch. Never been to St. Louis, though.
I’ll say a word for a crowd that doesn’t exist anymore. I saw games in Toronto and Montreal a week apart, and the Expos crowd was smaller but more into it.
The most deafeningly loud crowds were for the Bruins. Of course, that’s indoors. I wish I had seen other NHL crowds for comparison. Hockey fans are different- they’ve got a chip on their shoulders about it.
Re: golf, I’ve seen one senior tournament. Don’t remember the crowd. All I really got out of it was being surprised at what a big dude Vijay Singh is.
Can’t say Philly fans are the best. Loyal, yes. Boisterous, yes. Best? No. Too many a’holes who are drunk and ready to fight anyone in opposing team colors. It’s sports, everybody relax.
Eagles fans even beat up Chief Zee, the elderly black man who used to wear an Indian head-dress to football games.
Knicks fans at MSG are great
Should have known better than to ask me this question. I have an obvious bias.
Though, albeit from afar, I've seen in the St. Louis news station sports sections that so far this young season, attendance is down, including both the lowest and second lowest attendances in the history of the current Busch Stadium (2006-Present). The gossip is that the fanbase is angry at the GM and ownership for doing nothing in the offseason.
But, what are you saying is that St. Louis Cardinal fans going back a century, to Branch Rickey inventing baseball's minor league farm system, have expected excellence?
Downtown St. Louis going down the tubes thanks to Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner and Black Lives Matter is also a factor. Businesses are fleeing the City because of increased crime
I was at Busch Stadium in 2023. You get a block away from the stadium and downtown St. Louis is just dead.
It’s even more dead now
Much of Baltimore is the same kind of dead. I'd be afraid to be more than one block from the stadiums. One of my first dates with my future bride was to see the USS Constellation. I wouldn't go now. Or to the Aquarium or Harbor Place.
Gardner is gone. Her replacement is black, but reasonable. That, and St. Louis City's violent crime is down some from its 2020 high; Regression to the mean. The team drew its usual numbers even through the highest crime years (not counting Covid). It means the sharply declined numbers are due to fan frustration rather than fear of crime.
Crime may be down, but the effects linger. Fans would brave it to see Albert, Yadi and Wainwright, but not the current roster
I came here to post exact this; while it doesn't negate Steve's overall point, there has been a lot of chatter on Twitter about the Cardinals' mid-week attendance, which has been at less-than-half capacity despite playing in a relatively small park in the first place
To be fair, it has been a very cool Spring in much of America. It is April 15 and I'm going to start a fire in my wood stove after supper. If baseball was smart, they'd play as many games in April in Florida, California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada and Georgia.
I used to go to the Scottish Festival every year here in South Florida and I would have to say that the participants of the caber toss and the crowds that are watching them are some of the best crowds you're ever going to see watching a sport I remember one year one gentleman almost lost control of his caber which is a small telephone pole he's trying to flip upside down and land on its end and there was some people in the wheelchair near the edge of the field and the cable landed like 10 ft from them and they just sat there and politely applauded with everyone else no fuss no muss it was a near miss.
Hey Steve. I'd have to say that attending the Master's, even if its the practice round, is a special experience unrivaled by any other sport. I also appreciate the Master's committee's focus on integrity and maintaining a decorum that's missing completely from ALL other major sporting events. That said unfortunately legalized scalping has caught onto what a bargain the Master's is and has ruined the experience, and costs, for the ordinary fan. I live in Georgia and used to be able to get tickets about every two or three years and haven't since 2013 although I apply every year.
Another negative trend I noticed this year was the hats Augusta National was selling. In the past everything stuck to their well established brand in green or white. This year they sold hats with words like Pimento (for their famous pimento cheese sandwiches) or "azalea" in what looked like a tasteless money grab. There were also a couple of videos that popped up on the Masters feed of social media influencers talking about fashion. I hope this doesn't go the way of the Kentucky Derby and become popular as a destination for people who know nothing about golf.
I looked into getting tickets for one of the Masters practice days. The scalper wanted $1500 and would not guarantee that the tickets would get you in. So I keep entering the lottery.
> That said unfortunately legalized scalping has caught onto what a bargain the Master's is and has ruined the experience, and costs, for the ordinary fan. I live in Georgia and used to be able to get tickets about every two or three years and haven't since 2013 although I apply every year.<
With today's technology it should be a pretty straightforward to fix this. Tie the ticket to a particular name and DL--or passport.
Not really surprising though. America is now run by a coalition of scalpers, gate crashers and other assorted parasites.
The Washington Redskins once had the fanatical devotion of its fans as far back as the Sammy Baugh era through a bad patch after World War Two and then the short-lived Vince Lombardi era followed by the George Allen era and then the Joe Gibbs era. The waiting list for season tickets was as high as 100,000. But the Dan Snyder era destroyed that, a slow-motion catastrophe. Beyond Dan Snyder's self-destructiveness, the collapse of the devotion of Washington to its Redskins is also a result of Washington being more of a transitory city over the past forty years as the government greatly expanded as did the lobbying force. Most Washingtonians in 1970 were born and raised in the Washington area. That's not the case any longer. People come to Washington from all over the country and the world to get on the Washington gravy train. Sports bars all over the Washington area have Sundays dedicated to the teams of other cities- the Chicago Bears, the Dallas Cowboys, the Green Bay Packers, the Pittsburgh Steelers and many others except, perhaps, the Jacksonville Jaguars.
The most evil sports fans are those of Philadelphia. I don't know why. They even used to boo Mike Schmidt. But I do find it fitting that the Flyers haven't won a Stanley Cup for nearly fifty years after they bullied their way to two in a row in the mid-70s. It is so sweet.
Booing Mike Schmidt?
???
It took the Phillies a while to get over the hump- the Pittsburgh Pirates. Schmidt could be a feast or famine hitter and when he and the Phillies slumped at the same time, the home fans let Schmidt know their displeasure.
More than any other NHL team, the Philadelphia Flyers have been coasting on their reputation for the last 50 years. The NFL equivalent is the Miami Dolphins
People seem to move to the DC area for a nice paying gubment job then leave to go back home or elsewhere when able.
Some politicians never leave. Look at someone like Trent Lott. He lives somewhere in Northern Virginia and never went back to Mississippi. A lot of government workers end up being consultants for industries that they once regulated.
He's not someone anyone has never heard of, but the dean of the New Jersey congressional delegation is Chris Smith who was first elected in 1980 when the incumbent was caught up in AbScam. Smith has been in congress for so long that his current district includes no towns that were in his original district. Anyway the big criticism of him is that no longer lives in New Jersey and spends the vast majority of his time in Northern Virginia, yet his deep-red central New Jersey district keeps reëlecting him, only falling below 60 percent once in the last 40 years
Chris Smith was elected in 1980 to the House in a Democratic district because his Democratic competitor, Frank Thompson, was part of the Abscam scandal. Thompson ended up spending time in prison. Smith was not corrupt and is a good man. However, he's been around too long and has become a poster boy for why we need term limits. Forty-five years in the House is too long. As you explain, he doesn't even represent any of his original district.
My peripatetic career allowed me years of attendance at The Open, as well as membership at Royal Melbourne. I salute the Scots for knowledgeable dedication as they often stand for hours in a cold drizzle. The Australians have way more fun, while also knowing what’s happening. Sadly, the American fellow shouting “in the hole” has crossed Atlantic and Pacific to add to everyone’s enjoyment.
>Sadly, the American fellow shouting “in the hole” has crossed Atlantic and Pacific to add to everyone’s enjoyment.<
The golf spectator equivalent of tattoos. The person who started this should be found and executed. And any asshole shouting "get in the hole!" should be tossed off the grounds. It's a golf tournament not a porn flick.
How about bababooey?
Gary Del'Abate tossed one of the most shameful first-pitches in history many years ago. Of course, most posters don't know who bababooey is.
I'd like to see a major championship played at Royal Melbourne.
I marshalled the first President’s Cup played there in ‘98. The USA players seemed naive and less mature than Els and Singh and Price and Norman. They were never in the match.
It’s a wonderful course. No tee times! I never waited more than a half hour to tee off.
There was a time in rugby in the 1980s when the All Blacks were virtually unbeatable as shown by the way they dominated the inaugural world cup. That team was built around the Auckland rugby team who won the Ranfurly Shield (a home field challenge trophy) in 1985 and held it till 1993 through 148 defences.
Strangely, the Auckland crowd was neither vocal or particularly large (it might have only filled half of the large Eden Park stadium) and was a crowd that was scrupulously polite in not offering a sound when opponents took a kick for goal.
But what really distinguished the crowd as both discriminating and loyal (in a manner that must have been soul destroying for opposition teams and supporters) was the way that at half time a large proportion of the crowd would pack up their gear and move to the other end where the opposition was defending as this is where they knew all the try scoring action would be. Was perfectly normal to see one end of the arena relatively empty while the other half was packed depending which way the home team was playing.
Very different vibe, but the crowds for the annual Rugby Sevens in Hong Kong (which the All Blacks also dominated for many years, although less so now) are fantastic. The atmosphere is light-hearted, convivial, and simply fun.
Although rugby looks like a blue-collar sport, its roots, and many of its fans, still, are upper-middle to upper class (cf. its name, of course). I see plenty of evidence of this at the HK 7s.
Football/soccer seems to many strive-y middle class Americans to be a more cerebral and genteel game, because it's 'European'. But in the UK, for example, football is lower class, and has scary fans you really don't want to get on the wrong side of.
I've never been (but it was on NZ TV from quite early on) and yes the Hong Kong Sevens seemed to have a very jolly wealthy ex-pats vibe from back before the island was returned and I think they tried to retain that as a selling point and expand it for the whole international circuit. Which to be fair had some success although it doesn't quite gel with the ultra-competitive professional nature of the modern sport, to my mind.
As for football, it is a strange dichotomy between the world's sport and the US version. I went to a Leeds away match at Selhurst Park, in London a few years ago and although to me it had a very celebratory feel, the large police presence and particularly the bullying by police horses provided a glimpse of what it must have been like. A few of the locals gave hints of what it was like in their youth and for the main it seemed like it was something they remembered fondly, strangely enough.
The atmosphere at the HK 7s would be hard to duplicate elsewhere. You're right that some of it rests on there being plenty of expats from a variety of countries competing, which means there's no Us vs Them vibe as at a normal match. And I agree it's got a kind of throwback feel; it reminds me of the Quidditch Cup scenes at the beginning of one of the Harry Potter movies. It's also Commonwealth-specific; I don't think there's anything quite like it in American sports.
The 7s moved to HK's brand-new stadium this year, which holds about 50K. I didn't go this year, but from all accounts it was generally a success. Everybody seems to like the stadium. There are still plenty of wealthy expats here to attend, BTW.
Not sure what the best crowds are, but unfortunately the atmospheres across the board are getting worse. The average age of crowds at sporting events used to be younger, but with ticket prices being what they are, mainly older people really have the disposable income to go.
I live in NYC and while going to MSG for Knicks and Rangers is still great, the crowds have gotten more reserved as the attendees are older and wealthier.
This probably skews heavier for the major metro areas and for the bigger games, but it’s just kinda sad to see and I’m not sure what the solution is.
I will say though that it’s funny to see the contrast between the Masters crowd and the drunken frat fest that’s become to Waste Management Phoenix Open.
What impresses me most about pro golfers is not their skills -- which exist on a celestial plane far, far beyond my apprehension -- but rather their ability to do what they do with screeching crowds right up in their faces. It's amazing.
I went the full week to both 2022 St Andrews and 2019 Masters. Great fans. Hard to tell difference. St Andrews a little rowdier as there are bars right outside the gates. All in all very well behaved.
Best fans. - someone said Knicks fans at MSG and I can see that. Sat in front of two 9-year-old kids last year and they knew everything about the players, game etc. amazing knowledge. Goes for NY Rangers fans as well.
Buffalo Bills fans are great and loyal. Most fun fans are Cubs fans at Wrigley during day game. No place in the world better than Chicago on a day game day. I moved to that city just for that experience. The rest of the world is in their office cubicles at 11 AM on a Tuesday and you’re partying with hundreds of fun, attractive people. What’s not to like.
MMA fans are decent but too many tattoos. The tattooed have to be having some pangs of regret. How’s that barbed wire tattoo working out?
Philly Eagles fans are the worst. A gross town w gross people. lol. Philly got stuck with the ugly Italians as the handsome ones stayed in NYC area.
DC Wizards fans are some of the worst. Last game I went to I stood in line for beer at bar and line kept getting longer as the brothers kept cutting in front of me. I would’ve said something but I didn’t want to be stabbed in the heart.
I like the Mexican soccer fans who make US sissified liberal soccer fans cry for yelling a “racist” chant. They’re the best in my book.
I have read that Wizards fans are 50 % black, probably the largest black percentage of blacks for any major sport. The black butting in line is historic. I even remember blacks butting in line for the rides at King's Dominion way back in the 70s. They just can't help themselves.
How was the Rebel Yell? Don’t know, never got a chance to ride…
I vaguely remember it being fun. It's been a long time. Bet its name has changed.
I’m admittedly basing this entirely off of Hollywood portrayals, but isn’t there a particularly Jewish quality to the Knicks fanbase?
Absolutely. Jews love the nba and they are smart and very into their teams.
Jews and black have a love-hate relationship. Jews love blacks and black hate Jews.
Woody Allen, Paul Simon, and Lorne Michaels are all regulars at Knicks games
Midgets from "The Wizard of Oz" could post up on Paul Simon.
In the second episode of Saturday Night Live, Paul Simon played Connie Hawkins of the Atlanta Hawks in a competitive game of one-on-one, although the fix may have been in
The New York Knicks went 2-1 against the superstar-laden Los Angeles Lakers in 1970, 1972, and 1973 NBA Finals.
The Knicks were an exceptionally smart team with guys like future Senator Bill Bradley and 11-time NBA champ coach Phil Jackson.
It seems unfortunate to me that the Knicks haven't been terribly successful since. They have great fans.
I don't know if he was smart per se, but Jerry Lucas later made a living as a memory expert
I had partially written a nice post that included the Cubs and Wrigley Field fans among other observations, but your post nicely encapsulates most of what I wanted to say, sans my specific experiences.
Friday night lights in small town Texas
Generations of families who have played and cheered the team for better or worse. Right tackle who plays tuba in the band at halftime. Best Burgers ever.
Go Archer!
I would argue the sumo fans in Osaka.
Pro sumo has its grand sumo tournaments only in Japan, and only in 4 locations: Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, and Fukuoka. Pro sumo has no weight classes, and the people sitting up-front around the ring are either wrestlers waiting their turn, the judges, or diehard fans just waiting for a wrestler to fall on them (a thrill). You can be a fan of multiple wrestlers, though people usually have one or two they prefer, and talk about 3-d! The matches are over in a matter of seconds, and you have to pay close attention to strategy. It's not always the bigger guy who wins -- applied physics!
The most thrilling bouts are when a low-ranked guy topples a Yokozuna (gold star win) - and the fans throw their cushions. During the pandemic, people politely clapped (didn't yell, that would be germ-spreading) ... but the cushion-throwing is now back, and I'm happy for it. (mind you, you're not -supposed- to throw cushions, but this is a "rule" the Japanese will break.)
Wow, I didn't know you posted here. I remember when you posted at HalfSigma back when that was a thing
Man I’m old
Sounds like a contender.
I suspect the national Japanese high school baseball tournament is something, too.
Buffalo Sabers, Pittsburgh Pirates and Cleveland Browns fans, all in the rust belt.
And we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope.
Romans 5:3-4
Work a 40hr week for living (used to) and then enjoy their teams at night or weekends. Then bring their kids into the fun.
https://youtu.be/zvNy7pVCDLA?si=gRL0KB1tE2tF3vhz
I'd give anything to see the Sabres back in the playoffs.
The Pirates have a ballpark with a fantastic view of downtown Pittsburgh. A headline in The Onion:
"PNC Park Threatens To Leave Pittsburgh Unless Better Team Is Built"
There is a fan movement to force the owner, Bob Nutting, to sell. They're taking a holistic approach and will try to make this an issue in upcoming municipal elections. Since the city owns PNC Park and is losing revenue because of the team's poor performance, they want government officials to help pressure Nutting to either sell or improve the team.
https://ourteamnothis.com/
Not to be a pedant (thereby indicating that I probably am), but bullfighting isn't considered a sport in Spain. This is an unsurprisingly common misapprehension, maybe especially among Anglophones: after all, our word for it would seem to indicate that it's like boxing or MMA or whatever, and as a result English-speaking critics of the phenomenon will often complain that it's unfair.
But bullfighting isn't supposed to be fair or even a fight, despite the fact that one of the two main participants ends up dead in the vast majority of Spanish bullfights, almost always the bull. It's a ritual and a spectacle, often referred to as "La Fiesta Nacional"–an expression akin to "The National Pastime" for baseball, but with additional implications. In the newspapers, bullfighting is covered in its own slot, typically right between Arts and Sports, which sort of makes sense.
Anyway, yeah: bullfighting fans tend to be extremely knowledgeable about bullfighting. (An anthropology professor who was my uncle-in-law when I was married into that culture and lived in Seville for most of the 1990s took matters a step further by founding an academic review devoted to the subject: La Revista de Estudios Taurinos.) And this is officially recognized when a bullfight plays out: famously, the fans' response affects the trophies awarded the bullfighter (one ear, both ears, the ears and the tail).
I attended a bullfight back then at Seville's Maestranza bullring–the second most important in Spain after Madrid–when the newly full-fledged bullfighter Vicente Barrera (whose father himself was a so-so bullfighter and insisted on his son's getting a law degree before following him into the profession) secured the maximum triumph there: the right to be carried out through the main gate, the Puerta del Principe. The video used to be available on YouTube, and the crowd response is electric. But I guess it's been taken down for showing a lawyer killing two bulls with a sword.
> bullfighting isn't considered a sport in Spain
Is it akin to professional wrestling?
No, the imminent and potentially lethal threat of a half-ton raging bull makes people take it a lot more seriously than that–particularly the bullfighter and his (or her) subalterns.
It is more a spectacle, right.
Well, it's not particular sporting, is it. But actually I understand that killing animals was generally considered necessary once upon a time for it to be considered sport. Fox hunting, game bird shooting, bear, badger and bull and even rat baiting, coursing, rabbiting with ferrets and cockfighting were all considered sports, although their was apparently a differentiation or grey area with baiting and cockfighting which involved animals alone. Playing around with a ball or bat was considered to be games.
I guess things change over time-most of the animals are probably pleased about that
If you read a Jane Austen novel, for example, 'sport' absolutely means killing birds and animals.
My theory is that golf is the bourgeois version of aristocratic bloodsports adapted for the less bloodthirsty tastes of white collar workers. You wander around the landscape and occasionally take dead aim with your club to try to shoot a birdie. That would help explain why golf skews a lot more masculine in its appeal (e.g., most of the great American team sport athletes retire to the golf course and 12 of the last 15 Presidents have been golfers, all but one of the 12 being at one point or another an enthusiast) than the mild physical demands of the game would suggest.
I think the physical nature of golf gets undervalued a little and it can obviously vary depending on the use of carts and caddies. But remembering back to Casey Martin there was somewhat of an odour to his being allowed to compete with a cart.
The average golfer probably makes 50 to 60 solid swings as well as lifting and setting down a 25 pound bag which he then carries for perhaps five miles. It might not be paratrooper or ranger level but it's not nothing. They might do a bit extra but it seems to keep Tiger and Rory pretty fit
My cardiologist was impressed by me playing 8 rounds, walking and pushing my clubs in an unmotorized cart, at Bandon Dunes in four days at 2023.
Your numerous commenters who have suggested you put together a golf book are right, Steve.
I don’t golf, nor do I watch it, but I find your writing on the subject interesting enough to join those who recommend you write a book on the subject. If George Will could write a baseball book…
Yes, as I think I commented years ago at Unz, the most golf-like non-golf experiences I've had are driven pheasant shoots in England. The analogies are as you say, plus at least a couple more. To get to your peg you'll typically walk through a grassy area surrounded by woodland, which is maintained by the landowner specifically to facilitate the activity. Plus you effectively have a caddie: your loader, who carries your gun for you, gets it ready etc., and indicates where the birds will be coming in and how high.
And the term “sport coat” is easier to understand when one realizes it’s worn for a day’s shooting.
One character in "Vanity Fair" is an Oxford student, grandson of an aristocrat, who is destined for the clergy. His obsessive interests are dogfighting and ratcatching dogs.
At least one can dine on the results of a good day shooting birds.
Bullfighting is like opera with real daggers.
My parents, who were from the upper Midwest, went to a bullfight in Mexico before I was born. They didn't like it, just as they didn't like boxing the one time they went to the Friday night fights in the 1950s. My engineer dad's idea of a good spectator sport was a track meet. (Which I quite like.)
I was under the impression that Mexican bullfights are non-fatal, to the bull at least.
The other contenders for greatest lunatics on wheels are the Scandinavians who race motorcycles on ice tracks, using sheet metal screws in the tires for “traction.” I remember seeing that on Wide World of Sports fifty years ago.
WWoS used to show the All-Ireland Hurling final; another game in which men strike balls with sticks.
The ticket prices seem reasonable: around $25 to $400 depending upon seat, venue, bullfighter. Which bullfights/cities would you recommend?
It all depends on the bullfighters: it's best to find something with an established star who's still pretty young or, ideally, a well-regarded kid on the way up. I would avoid novilladas (in which probationary teenaged proto-bullfighters take on smaller bulls and generally do very badly out of nerves and fear) and also anything involving an old star, who's probably gonna be phoning it in: cowardly and tentative. I can't really tell you who's who these days, but you can ask around.
Then there's a rejoneo, which is a bullfight done entirely on horseback. Pretty interesting if you like that sort of thing.
I only know bullrings in Andalusia, which is where I lived. The Maestranza bullring in Seville is fantastic, as is (famously, thanks to Orson Welles) the bullring in Ronda, where modern bullfighting was basically invented by Pedro Romero in the late 18th century. I also love Sanlúcar de Barrameda and El Puerto de Santa María, down in the sherry triangle in the province of Cádiz. But there are a lot of good bullrings all over the place, and it largely depends on whether there are bullfights where you are when you're there.
The single most Spanish building I can think of is a bullring that's also partly a fortification and former mosque built on a Visigothic church in Almonaster la Real, in the mountains of Huelva. Look it up: it's wild. Almonaster is well worth a visit for that and other reasons, although you're unlikely to coincide with a bullfight as I think they only have a couple a year.
I envy you your time in Seville. Mrs C and I visited there a couple of years ago, and were blown away -- what a remarkable place it is. We also visited Cordoba and Granada, and a couple of smaller Andalusian towns, and couldn't get enough of the area. We'll be going back -- soon, I hope.
I don't know if I could do a bullfight. I'm not really a soft-hearted type, but getting ritualistically stabby with animals just sets me off. I appreciate your comments on it very much, though -- very insightful.
Yeah, Andalusia is pretty great. I don't blame you for not wanting to go to a bullfight: not everyone's cup of tea to put it mildly. I ended up liking it to my great surprise, and I'm not sure that fact speaks well of me.
Here's some footage that remains on YouTube of that bullfighter/lawyer Vicente Barrera doing what's called a tentadero, which involves bullfighting technique but no bloodletting at all. Basically a bull breeder will invite an established bullfighter to the ranch to practice with the heifers to see which ones seem to behave most like fighting bulls in order to decide which ones to breed. So the bullfighter gets a bit of practice, generates some goodwill with the breeder (which is good professionally), and then has drinks and a great meal with everyone in attendance at the end. (Once the bullfighter is finished with a heifer, they let other people get in and have a go, which I've done, and I can't tell you how nerve-wracking that is even with an animal that size.) https://youtu.be/87ODIZzhno8
Hemingway maintained that there are only three sports: Mountain climbing, motor racing, and bullfighting. All the rest being games. I’m surprised he didn’t include boxing.
Other than the Isle of Man TT, I'm not sure that motor racing would still make the cut. I was listening to some old Beach Boys songs and what they happily sing about as the teenage dream is frankly terrifying in terms of speeds that equate to today but with no apparent safety
I raced motorcycles a long, long time ago. I knew a couple of guys who raced the TT; on Manx Nortons. Lunatics.
I can recall learning about the Isle of Man races 55 years ago in Sports Illustrated and ABC's "Wide World of Sports." Are there still mass market media like that that introduces people to foreign and/or aristocratic sports?
When I go to ESPN.com these days, I note that the most strongly featured tab is "NFL." It's April 16, the least footballish day of the year.
I can recall reading in the Guinness Book of World Records when I was 10 or 11 that the highest pay ever for a journalist was whatever the nascent Sports Illustrated offered Hemingway for 1500 words on bullfighting.
That's the kind of thing I remember.
The Cardinal fans are a good choice. They cheer outstanding plays by opponents. And when an outfielder misses a cutoff man, you can almost hear the collective gasp of disdain.
I still remember the Sacramento Kings fans giving John Stockton and Karl Malone standing ovations after the Kings finally mastered the Jazz at the end of Stockton's career.
I’ve been to a number of different MLB parks and never felt like I saw a bad crowd. I’m biased, but none of them had the intensity of a Fenway crowd. It seemed like 90 pct of the crowd reacted to every single pitch. Never been to St. Louis, though.
I’ll say a word for a crowd that doesn’t exist anymore. I saw games in Toronto and Montreal a week apart, and the Expos crowd was smaller but more into it.
The most deafeningly loud crowds were for the Bruins. Of course, that’s indoors. I wish I had seen other NHL crowds for comparison. Hockey fans are different- they’ve got a chip on their shoulders about it.
Re: golf, I’ve seen one senior tournament. Don’t remember the crowd. All I really got out of it was being surprised at what a big dude Vijay Singh is.
Was able to attend my 2nd NHL game in the Boston: they were nuts and I joined in right along with them.