During each Olympics, I get to remind everybody that my moderate theory that Nature and Nurture both matter is much more plausible than the conventional wisdom's extremist Nurture Only theory.
The Serbs are giant farmers, unnaturally coordinated. Croatians are also gifted but really like being Croatian. The Irish excel at sports where they are hit in the head.
"South Asia has a few sub-Saharans brought in by the slave trade and the like. (The young Barack Obama once met a black field worker laboring at Obama’s Pakistani friend’s family fort.)"
Surely any Black-Subsaharan person or group "brought over by the slave trade," if descendants there be, they would be multiethnic descendants for the most part, I'd think.
It seems these Black-Subsaharan descendants are referred to as: "Siddis." As sp often the case with unusual groups like this, huge error-bars are applied to their purported numbers. A total population that is either around 300,000 or around 1,300,000. The few studies done on them show a ca. 60-70% Subsaharan genetic contribution, so multiply whatever total-population number you prefer by 65% to get an approximate Subsaharan genetic-contribution. (Surely there is far more Subsaharan genetics dispersed within the rest of the Indian Subcontinent's population than with the Siddis.)
The Siddis are said to be Sufi Muslims, because their African animist beliefs and rituals transposed smoothly onto Sufi-ism.
As for Barack Obama Jr.'s visit to Pakistan in the early 1980s, it's funny (if true) that he would run into a "Black person" (Siddi) in Pakistan when their numbers were certainly <0.5% and perhaps close to 0.1% of the Pakistan population (and far lower in India).
Sri Lanka has no Siddis and apparently no group of Blacks or mostly-Blacks with any long-term continuity that exists down to the present (the historical existence of part-Subsaharan, mixed-race "Sri Lanka Kaffirs" notwithstanding).
Alas, ethnic-groups need closed-off marriage-pools to maintain their continuity, to say nothing of 'identity.' That generally means control of a geographic space to the exclusion of others, but it can be through social custom living among others (diasporic peoples); the Hindu caste system could partially get it done. The good bet is, though, that a group WILL fade away and disappear without such conditions (as the Sri Lanka Kaffirs did; and probably as most "Siddi" did).
A lot of people have vague notions about North America in which there will always be Whites of NW-European or adjacent European ancestral-stock, simply because there always had been before. For me this is a cartoonish image of how ethnocultural continuity (or discontinuity) works. Similar to how Star Trek, four centuries in the future, shows us people who look exactly like the racial situation of the 20th-century USA!
Somebody posted 23andMe results to Reddit under the title "My results as an Indian Muslim" which shows 2% Sub-Saharan, specifically tying to Blacks in Sudan.
(It's maybe not a surprise that the Black element ends up in the Muslim genepool and not Hindu or Sikh etc.)
This is consistent with one of this person's great-great-great grandparent being mostly Sub-Saharan (1/32 ancestral-branches at 70% Black, 31/32 branches at 0% Black). The Subsaharan line being entirely tied to "Sudan" probably indicates a direct single ancestor, I'd think, not a wide pool of Blacks from miscellaneous sources.
Five generations up this person's ancestral-tree, a Black from Sudan went or was brought to India, intermarried, and entered the general "Indian Muslim" genepool. Some of the Arab ancestry 23andMe guesses exists may also be tied to that individual.
In any case, this is probably a lot more-typical of whatever Subsaharan is found amongst the Muslims of South Asia, than an actual breeding-pool of Blacks one might imagine exists.
The difference is that everybody, all over the world, runs. Whereas a relatively small part of the world’s youth has consistent access to swimming facilities.
There’s no need to muddy the waters (heh!) on this issue; the basic evidence is already overwhelming.
I can recall a black woman from somewhere like Curacao winning a swimming medal in 1976. my impression is that among the tiny number of blacks who really get into the swimming life, they do proportionately fine in competition.
Enith Britiha (b.1955), a native of Willemstad, Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles, born to a Curaçaoan father and Dutch mother. She won two bronze medals in swimming in 1976.
"She was the first black athlete to win a swimming medal in the Olympics," wiki notes.
But they are using a loose and wide-net definition of "Black." She clearly has substantial White ancestry; she looks like a 'quadroon' or a South African 'Cape Coloured.' The Curacao father is unlikely himself 100%-Subsaharan and perhaps something like 50%.
Enith Britiha clearly inherited a strong-swimming-skills phenotype, the question is how much that dodged away from the overall genotype and leaned on the European-genes to express themselves.
I know it’s somewhat of a digression, but when Olympic sprinters come up in the conversation, I usually think of Bullet Bob Hayes.
Hayes was a double gold medalist in the 1964 Olympics, including the fastest 100 meter relay split ever timed, and what should have been a world record 9.9 second 100 meter dash time but due to convoluted handwaving by the officials got turned into a 10.06 second world-record-tying performance instead. Still was a gold medal performance.
Then he tried pro football. Hayes had been drafted in 1964 as a long shot by the Dallas Cowboys, and it paid off: with his speed, he couldn’t be covered man-to-man, forcing teams to develop zone defenses. Hayes led the league in receiving touchdowns his first two seasons. He was also a stellar punt returner. When the Cowboys won their first Super Bowl in 1972, Hays became the first and still only player to win an Olympic gold medal and a Super Bowl ring.
Obviously, Hayes was black. He had some legal issues with drugs that probably kept him out of the Pro Football Hall of Fame during his lifetime, although he did get in posthumously. He truly changed the game with his speed, but raw speed wasn’t enough. Other teams tried converting sprinters to wide receivers, but unlike Hayes, success was generally limited; the most famous attempt was probably the 49ers trying to make a wide receiver out of world-class hurdler Renaldo Nehemiah, with limited success, making Bullet Bob’s success even more impressive - a good example of genes (nobody gets that fast by coaching and perseverance alone) and mental toughness (all good football players have a lot of mental toughness and coachability).
> In 2022 Yupun Abeykoon of Sri Lanka ran 9.96 in the 100 meters ... He benefited from a +1.6 tailwind
According to an online calculator, this is equivalent to 10.03 s with no wind. Of course, 1.6 is within the limit for any records so it stands anyway. I wonder if the 100m has ever been run backwards, i.e. from right to left, in order to avoid a strong tailwind. In theory it shouldn't matter which direction you run because there are no turns, but logistically it might be tough because of all the electronics that are now involved.
There are definitely some tracks that have the capability to do this for the 100m and 200m, and I've been to high school state championship races where this has happened, so I don't think having some extra timing equipment is a barrier. I'm struggling to think, however, of a time where I've seen this done in a professional race with Olympic-caliber athletes, probably because it would be too much of a hassle for the cameras, and because you'd be screwing over the fans who paid for the best seats in the house (the ones with a great view of the finish line).
The 200m might be tougher, if only because the vast majority of tracks run it on the curve, so you would have to make sure that each lane is marked for it. In addition, you would be fighting against muscle memory as you are turning right instead of turning left.
I have worked track meets where the 200m was run on a straight-away. This is an actual real-world demonstration of how slow the speed of sound is because if you were standing at the finish line, there was a discernable gap between the smoke of the starter's pistol and the sound of its firing. Depending on temperature, it takes about 9/16 of a second for the sound to reach the finish line.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I've seen the 200 run starting at what would normally be the finishing line, and ending on what would normally be the back stretch. So the race is identical (100 m turning left on a curve, then 100m straight), you just start and finish at a different spot on the track.
There’s a young fellow swimming in this year’s Olympics who seems to be avoiding much notice so far. Chris Giuliano of Notre Dame is only the second male swimmer in US history to qualify for the 50, 100, and 200 freestyle in the same year. He’s someone to keep your eye on; just 21 years old.
Some argue nature only, other say nurture only. Steve says nature and nurture both play a large role in human behavior and abilities and he's tarred as the extremeist. Go figure.
DNA matters
The Serbs are giant farmers, unnaturally coordinated. Croatians are also gifted but really like being Croatian. The Irish excel at sports where they are hit in the head.
Or as the old saw goes a face to withstand alcohol induced domestic violence.
"South Asia has a few sub-Saharans brought in by the slave trade and the like. (The young Barack Obama once met a black field worker laboring at Obama’s Pakistani friend’s family fort.)"
Surely any Black-Subsaharan person or group "brought over by the slave trade," if descendants there be, they would be multiethnic descendants for the most part, I'd think.
It seems these Black-Subsaharan descendants are referred to as: "Siddis." As sp often the case with unusual groups like this, huge error-bars are applied to their purported numbers. A total population that is either around 300,000 or around 1,300,000. The few studies done on them show a ca. 60-70% Subsaharan genetic contribution, so multiply whatever total-population number you prefer by 65% to get an approximate Subsaharan genetic-contribution. (Surely there is far more Subsaharan genetics dispersed within the rest of the Indian Subcontinent's population than with the Siddis.)
The Siddis are said to be Sufi Muslims, because their African animist beliefs and rituals transposed smoothly onto Sufi-ism.
As for Barack Obama Jr.'s visit to Pakistan in the early 1980s, it's funny (if true) that he would run into a "Black person" (Siddi) in Pakistan when their numbers were certainly <0.5% and perhaps close to 0.1% of the Pakistan population (and far lower in India).
Sri Lanka has no Siddis and apparently no group of Blacks or mostly-Blacks with any long-term continuity that exists down to the present (the historical existence of part-Subsaharan, mixed-race "Sri Lanka Kaffirs" notwithstanding).
Alas, ethnic-groups need closed-off marriage-pools to maintain their continuity, to say nothing of 'identity.' That generally means control of a geographic space to the exclusion of others, but it can be through social custom living among others (diasporic peoples); the Hindu caste system could partially get it done. The good bet is, though, that a group WILL fade away and disappear without such conditions (as the Sri Lanka Kaffirs did; and probably as most "Siddi" did).
A lot of people have vague notions about North America in which there will always be Whites of NW-European or adjacent European ancestral-stock, simply because there always had been before. For me this is a cartoonish image of how ethnocultural continuity (or discontinuity) works. Similar to how Star Trek, four centuries in the future, shows us people who look exactly like the racial situation of the 20th-century USA!
Somebody posted 23andMe results to Reddit under the title "My results as an Indian Muslim" which shows 2% Sub-Saharan, specifically tying to Blacks in Sudan.
(It's maybe not a surprise that the Black element ends up in the Muslim genepool and not Hindu or Sikh etc.)
.
"MY 23andMe RESULTS AS AN INDIAN MUSLIM"
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/1ay6hxy/my_results_as_an_indian_muslim/
.
SOUTH ASIAN
- Bengali & Northeast Indian, 74.3%
- Northern Indian & Pakistani, 10.5%
- Southern Indian & Sri Lankan, 7.9%
- Gujarati Patidar, 0.2%
- Broadly Central & South Asian, 2.5%
Subtotal: 95.4%
.
WEST ASIAN AND NORTH AFRICAN
- Levantine, 0.7%
- Egyptian, 0.6%
- Broadly Arab, 0.1%
- Iranian, Caucuses, & 'Mesopotamian', 1.2%
Subtotal: 2.6%
.
SUB-SAHARAN
- Sudanese, 1.9%
- Broadly Sub-Saharan African, 0.1%
Subtotal: 2%
.
This is consistent with one of this person's great-great-great grandparent being mostly Sub-Saharan (1/32 ancestral-branches at 70% Black, 31/32 branches at 0% Black). The Subsaharan line being entirely tied to "Sudan" probably indicates a direct single ancestor, I'd think, not a wide pool of Blacks from miscellaneous sources.
Five generations up this person's ancestral-tree, a Black from Sudan went or was brought to India, intermarried, and entered the general "Indian Muslim" genepool. Some of the Arab ancestry 23andMe guesses exists may also be tied to that individual.
In any case, this is probably a lot more-typical of whatever Subsaharan is found amongst the Muslims of South Asia, than an actual breeding-pool of Blacks one might imagine exists.
I'm surprised he doesn't bring up Africans total lack of success in swimming events. Sounds like he would blame it on racist pools.
The difference is that everybody, all over the world, runs. Whereas a relatively small part of the world’s youth has consistent access to swimming facilities.
There’s no need to muddy the waters (heh!) on this issue; the basic evidence is already overwhelming.
The term African Rock Fish didn't come from nowhere
I can recall a black woman from somewhere like Curacao winning a swimming medal in 1976. my impression is that among the tiny number of blacks who really get into the swimming life, they do proportionately fine in competition.
Enith Britiha (b.1955), a native of Willemstad, Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles, born to a Curaçaoan father and Dutch mother. She won two bronze medals in swimming in 1976.
"She was the first black athlete to win a swimming medal in the Olympics," wiki notes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enith_Brigitha
But they are using a loose and wide-net definition of "Black." She clearly has substantial White ancestry; she looks like a 'quadroon' or a South African 'Cape Coloured.' The Curacao father is unlikely himself 100%-Subsaharan and perhaps something like 50%.
Enith Britiha clearly inherited a strong-swimming-skills phenotype, the question is how much that dodged away from the overall genotype and leaned on the European-genes to express themselves.
I’m sure many people are unhappy with genetic explanations for any group characteristics. Slippery slope, they’d think. Best not to go there.
I know it’s somewhat of a digression, but when Olympic sprinters come up in the conversation, I usually think of Bullet Bob Hayes.
Hayes was a double gold medalist in the 1964 Olympics, including the fastest 100 meter relay split ever timed, and what should have been a world record 9.9 second 100 meter dash time but due to convoluted handwaving by the officials got turned into a 10.06 second world-record-tying performance instead. Still was a gold medal performance.
Then he tried pro football. Hayes had been drafted in 1964 as a long shot by the Dallas Cowboys, and it paid off: with his speed, he couldn’t be covered man-to-man, forcing teams to develop zone defenses. Hayes led the league in receiving touchdowns his first two seasons. He was also a stellar punt returner. When the Cowboys won their first Super Bowl in 1972, Hays became the first and still only player to win an Olympic gold medal and a Super Bowl ring.
Obviously, Hayes was black. He had some legal issues with drugs that probably kept him out of the Pro Football Hall of Fame during his lifetime, although he did get in posthumously. He truly changed the game with his speed, but raw speed wasn’t enough. Other teams tried converting sprinters to wide receivers, but unlike Hayes, success was generally limited; the most famous attempt was probably the 49ers trying to make a wide receiver out of world-class hurdler Renaldo Nehemiah, with limited success, making Bullet Bob’s success even more impressive - a good example of genes (nobody gets that fast by coaching and perseverance alone) and mental toughness (all good football players have a lot of mental toughness and coachability).
> In 2022 Yupun Abeykoon of Sri Lanka ran 9.96 in the 100 meters ... He benefited from a +1.6 tailwind
According to an online calculator, this is equivalent to 10.03 s with no wind. Of course, 1.6 is within the limit for any records so it stands anyway. I wonder if the 100m has ever been run backwards, i.e. from right to left, in order to avoid a strong tailwind. In theory it shouldn't matter which direction you run because there are no turns, but logistically it might be tough because of all the electronics that are now involved.
I think most elite 100m sprints are held on tracks where the prevailing wind is a tailwind.
And the altitude helps a bit.
I imagine that this meet was popular with sprinters because it was held at 3300 feet elevation in Switzerland.
And the new shoes of the last half dozen years help.
But still, 9.96 isn't bad.
There are definitely some tracks that have the capability to do this for the 100m and 200m, and I've been to high school state championship races where this has happened, so I don't think having some extra timing equipment is a barrier. I'm struggling to think, however, of a time where I've seen this done in a professional race with Olympic-caliber athletes, probably because it would be too much of a hassle for the cameras, and because you'd be screwing over the fans who paid for the best seats in the house (the ones with a great view of the finish line).
The 200m might be tougher, if only because the vast majority of tracks run it on the curve, so you would have to make sure that each lane is marked for it. In addition, you would be fighting against muscle memory as you are turning right instead of turning left.
I have worked track meets where the 200m was run on a straight-away. This is an actual real-world demonstration of how slow the speed of sound is because if you were standing at the finish line, there was a discernable gap between the smoke of the starter's pistol and the sound of its firing. Depending on temperature, it takes about 9/16 of a second for the sound to reach the finish line.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I've seen the 200 run starting at what would normally be the finishing line, and ending on what would normally be the back stretch. So the race is identical (100 m turning left on a curve, then 100m straight), you just start and finish at a different spot on the track.
https://x.com/fasc1nate/status/1816307386862256531?s=42&t=8_Fkzw0qWzeGku3wM-ajTA
There’s some talent for you .
There’s a young fellow swimming in this year’s Olympics who seems to be avoiding much notice so far. Chris Giuliano of Notre Dame is only the second male swimmer in US history to qualify for the 50, 100, and 200 freestyle in the same year. He’s someone to keep your eye on; just 21 years old.
Some argue nature only, other say nurture only. Steve says nature and nurture both play a large role in human behavior and abilities and he's tarred as the extremeist. Go figure.